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Old 08-13-2017, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Sarasota FL
6,864 posts, read 12,031,431 times
Reputation: 6743

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We go to national forests to see many trees, wildlife, birds singing. But now wind turbines will be allowed but not oil drilling rigs. When is the last time an oil rig killed a flock of birds?
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
5,277 posts, read 2,783,482 times
Reputation: 1932
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4g4m View Post
We go to national forests to see many trees, wildlife, birds singing. But now wind turbines will be allowed but not oil drilling rigs. When is the last time an oil rig killed a flock of birds?
I am so glad you are concerned about birds.

Windmills according to my research do indeed kill 10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC

Since your concern is genuine, how about you take out all the windows in your house and disconnect from the electric grid?

Windows kill

100 million -- 1 billion [source: TreeHugger

Power lines kill

130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA

Also be sure to shoot any cats you see outside. They kill 100's of million too.
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Formerly New England now Texas!
1,708 posts, read 1,091,536 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
For the first time a National Forest in the US has become the site of a wind turbine farm.
Lets rev up those avian slaughter houses. Nothing says forest to me like the sound of hundreds of turbines whirling and slicing birds. Maybe we can put deadly turbines across the Manhattan skyline? You know, to share the love of green, and the noise, and the death of birds? Certainly folks in cities won't mind a lot of extra noise.

Coming to a national park near you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSM8AomheKk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9v4tee7zD8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOU39ws1gHo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEersoJLtRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugVkpS9EGl0

Last edited by functionofx; 08-14-2017 at 01:51 AM..
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:04 AM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,499,486 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
I have seen both windfarms and open pit strip mines and 1000 foot tall chimneys next to coal fired boiler plants.

I have also seen oil platforms in the sea.

I vote for windfarms every time.

Full disclosure: I own a sailboat.
Any plastics on that boat?
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,510 posts, read 37,031,594 times
Reputation: 13978
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Any plastics on that boat?
My boat is made of plastic....So what?
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Formerly New England now Texas!
1,708 posts, read 1,091,536 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
My boat is made of plastic....So what?
It's made of oil. Plastic is oil.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
5,277 posts, read 2,783,482 times
Reputation: 1932
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Any plastics on that boat?
Yes I did use oil because the epoxy impregnated fiberglass comes from oil. The sails are also synthetic oil based fabric.

However, these are a one time use. I have no motorized land vehicle that consumes fuel day in and day out.

In fact today I biked to the immigration department and internet shop.

I also have a wind generator and 900 watts of solar panels. Again a one time use of energy.

I admit when I fly back to the US I generate a lot of green house gases. However, I rarely fly.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,510 posts, read 37,031,594 times
Reputation: 13978
Quote:
Originally Posted by functionofx View Post
It's made of oil. Plastic is oil.
Again so what? Oil used to manufacture things does no harm to the atmosphere.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
5,277 posts, read 2,783,482 times
Reputation: 1932
Quote:
Originally Posted by functionofx View Post
Lets rev up those avian slaughter houses. Nothing says forest to me like the sound of hundreds of turbines whirling and slicing birds. Maybe we can put deadly turbines across the Manhattan skyline? You know, to share the love of green, and the noise, and the death of birds? Certainly folks in cities won't mind a lot of extra noise.

Coming to a national park near you!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSM8AomheKk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9v4tee7zD8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOU39ws1gHo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEersoJLtRw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugVkpS9EGl0
First 2 have nothing to do with birds.

2nd to last does make some good points. It is illegal to kill some eagles and you can pay a big fine and even go to jail. Yet turbines do kill birds and no one is fined.

Further Exxon paid a fine when oil killed birds.

So point taken.

Let me reply with this:

If global warming kills millions of birds, isn't that worse?
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:24 AM
 
Location: on the wind
23,025 posts, read 18,369,188 times
Reputation: 74499
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

It is interesting to note in article it took 10 years for approval process.

It would be nice if Trump could help cut that to 6 months and get America building again.
As national forests are managed by the US Department of Agriculture (held in trust for the nation in perpetuity), by law they must complete an environmental impact analysis before permitting a use of land that will alter what was there; the soils, watersheds, wildlife habitat, forest resources, air quality, natural sound, use by the public, any natural resource that will be altered. In this case, the action was leasing the parcel of federally managed land to the energy company. Of course there are benefits from wind turbines, but there are also negative impacts....loss of habitat, hazards to birds, damage to surrounding forest depending on the topography (newly cleared patches in forested areas expose trees around the perimeter to windthrow), etc.

The applicable law (National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA) does not prohibit the use, it requires the potential impacts to be researched, disclosed, commented on by the public, and any mitigations possible be considered before the action goes forward. You hear people harp about accountability in government? Well, this is it. Agencies cannot make significant decisions with the nation's resources without disclosing them ahead of time. You had better be glad they do. Prior to NEPA, Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, (and the main triggers to create these laws) there were private companies fouling our beaches with tar, denuding forests causing massive erosion, applying pesticides whenever and wherever they wished, dumping who knows what contaminants into the nation's rivers, lakes, and offshore, putting tons of waste into the air, condemning privately-owned land for interstate highway construction, and there was little any public agency could do to prevent it.

This all takes time, it can be fought in civil court (anyone can file a suit against the proposal...a private citizen, an NGO, another agency, anyone), and the analysis can end up revised over and over again. Anyone can read the action's administrative record to find out how the decision was reached. It is all a matter of public record. THAT is also required by law. So before you assume anything, make sure you know the facts behind the decision, what was lost and what is to be gained.

No matter what Trump wants, he can't go against federal law, and only Congress can repeal law with the consent of the public.

Last edited by Parnassia; 08-14-2017 at 03:08 AM..
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