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Old 09-19-2017, 04:27 PM
 
11,046 posts, read 5,248,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post

How questionable the term "Civil War " is is irrelevant. Vietnam is 8500 miles from the United States, and the fate of the country was in no way an American matter. The Domino Theory shouldn't have applied there and it certainly shouldn't have gotten Americans killed halfway around the world.
.

So Red China and the Soviets our sworn enemies supplying Vietnam did it out of their hearts, they had no intentions of expanding communist rule in Asia and Europe?
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:36 PM
 
Location: On the Beach
4,139 posts, read 4,512,884 times
Reputation: 10317
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Like Robert Redford, I didn't realize that Jane Fonda was still around.

I guess these 80 year old celebrities can still get their name in the press if they go onto the teevee and call Trump names.

---------------------------

Vietnam? Blame Truman, IKE, Kennedy, but most of all blame LBJ and McNamara.
Ummm, she happens to have a TV show on Net Flix. Still looks fantastic!
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:14 PM
 
45,676 posts, read 23,923,455 times
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Having to go back to 1972 -- dear oh dear....and we wonder why young 'uns laugh at us.

Time to move on I'd say........lol
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,034 posts, read 27,456,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Having to go back to 1972 -- dear oh dear....and we wonder why young 'uns laugh at us.

Time to move on I'd say........lol
You know what they say


“Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not.”

It has nothing to do with age, fame, fortune, or looks.

This said, I don't believe she really needs other people's "forgiveness", nor do I believe she needs to keep on asking others to "get over it" (as if she is trying to convince herself.) As long as she can live with the decision she made a long time ago, it is all that matters.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:23 PM
 
26,336 posts, read 14,946,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
If I were being so damn partisan, why did I say Kennedy or LBJ? Get real.

The United States was attempting to subjugate the Vietnamese...period. You can come up with all the flowery sounding explanations that you want, but the intent was to put Vietnam under our purview.

How questionable the term "Civil War " is is irrelevant. Vietnam is 8500 miles from the United States, and the fate of the country was in no way an American matter. The Domino Theory shouldn't have applied there and it certainly shouldn't have gotten Americans killed halfway around the world.

There is no good justification for our involvement in Vietnam no matter what the guise. We murdered millions of Vietnamese, even after it was quite clear that we'd have no success there.

Then you were ignorant of the history that you were speaking on and should just move on rather than blowing it off, changing goal posts, and acting indifferent to factual errors on your part.

Fact is: (1) an honest and informed person wouldn't start it with Ike, (2) would admit that North Vietnamese propaganda against the US AND South Vietnam had BS in it, and (3) would admit that the US also used poor reasoning to justify its involvement.

I have done all of the above. Just because the US didn't have good justification to be there doesn't mean you should push BS reasoning yourself.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:30 PM
 
26,336 posts, read 14,946,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
So Red China and the Soviets our sworn enemies supplying Vietnam did it out of their hearts, they had no intentions of expanding communist rule in Asia and Europe?
The Vietnamese had fought against outsiders for thousands of years. The North Vietnamese wouldn't likely permit themselves to be pawns of either the Soviets or Chinese, but they would accept their aid in their conquest of South Vietnam.

Likewise, we had no intention of turning Vietnam into some 1800s style colony per North Vietnamese propaganda - no matter how much a history-challenged-alternative-fact pusher wants to dance around holding hands with such BS propaganda.

Watch Errol Morris' Fog of War. Both North Vietnam and the US could have gotten their early goals had they listened to one another.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Twin Falls Idaho
4,996 posts, read 2,436,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
The Vietnamese had fought against outsiders for thousands of years. The North Vietnamese wouldn't likely permit themselves to be pawns of either the Soviets or Chinese, but they would accept their aid in their conquest of South Vietnam.

Likewise, we had no intention of turning Vietnam into some 1800s style colony per North Vietnamese propaganda - no matter how much a history-challenged-alternative-fact pusher wants to dance around holding hands with such BS propaganda.

Watch Errol Morris' Fog of War. Both North Vietnam and the US could have gotten their early goals had they listened to one another.
This is very true...we missed a huge opportunity..had we backed the results of the election that Ho fairly won...we could have mitigated the abuses of the Viet Minh..and had access to some of the best harbors in Asia....Haiphong...Cam Ranh Bay..The Mekong Delta--if China was the problem..via the Domino Theory--what better way to poke the Dragon?

The Vietnamese HATE China..they were a colony for hundreds of years. We could have exploited that..but no--everyone wanted to support the French..a beaten nation trying to hold on to fading dreams of Imperialism.
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Old 09-19-2017, 07:49 PM
 
26,336 posts, read 14,946,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEyeFleegle View Post
This is very true...we missed a huge opportunity..had we backed the results of the election that Ho fairly won...we could have mitigated the abuses of the Viet Minh..and had access to some of the best harbors in Asia....Haiphong...Cam Ranh Bay..The Mekong Delta--if China was the problem..via the Domino Theory--what better way to poke the Dragon?

The Vietnamese HATE China..they were a colony for hundreds of years. We could have exploited that..but no--everyone wanted to support the French..a beaten nation trying to hold on to fading dreams of Imperialism.
Fair points, but remember Ho only won an election in North Vietnam and his popularity in South Vietnam dipped after 1954. South Vietnam had not signed the Geneva Accords and so were not bound to have a reunification election. South Vietnam had also gained 850,000 people fleeing North Vietnam that were persecuted by communists and Ho, while 80,000 hardened communists left South Vietnam into North Vietnam. This likely would have swayed the election in South Vietnam into staying independent from North Vietnam.

Perhaps this is why all of the international observers said that North Vietnam was trying to rig the elections (hence the farce of being pure motives of self-determination) and then when the elections didn't happen - declared war.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ka...page&q&f=false

But, yes the bottom line is....We could have left North Vietnam alone, not had Soviets or Chinese controlling them, but goodwill from freeing them (WWII) perhaps leading to deals and they could have had what they wanted from us, no new outsiders seeking to colonize them to exploit their resources.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,826 posts, read 20,651,155 times
Reputation: 14818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
You had 3 presidents who could have ended the war and played politics but here we have yet another's Jane Fonda thread. People need to get their priorities in order, go read Robert McNamara's memoir and tell me that an actress was the largest issue we faced.
It's just always easier to dump on the available woman.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,034 posts, read 27,456,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24 View Post
It's just always easier to dump on the available woman.
well, she has no one else to blame but herself. I don't think other women have been blamed for this.
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