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Old 09-28-2017, 06:27 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,282,175 times
Reputation: 1588

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I understand.

I'll try it again...clean slate.

Where do rights come from?



They don't "come from" anywhere. Society dictates what rights it grants to its citizens. Theoretically this is done by the majority of the people through government, but really doesn't work that way in reality. People within that society's territory have the choice of rebelling against the society's laws, working to change them, or moving to another territory which is more in line with said persons wants and needs.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,949 posts, read 17,851,639 times
Reputation: 10371
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
God? Did God deliver thousands of pages of philosophy into the hands of the Founders who read it and copied the best parts?

You sound like one of those folks I referenced in the post above - thinking there was no precedent for the Constitution - came out of nowhere, right?

There were plenty of books around at the time and "democracy" had been thought about full time since ancient Greece and probably even beforehand.
That's what I've heard. Athens. As far as a republic it was the Romans.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Midwest
38,496 posts, read 25,800,800 times
Reputation: 10789
Be it not for secular government and the secular laws that protect our rights; "witches" could possibly still be burned at the stake, adulterers might still be stoned to death, we would be put to death for working on the Sabbath, etc..
Banned by the Bible
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:33 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,282,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
What are you talking about?

Of course the State goes around and cages/kills people for victimless activities as well as non-consensual edicts they enforce.

It's the basis of its power.

I'm talking about the principles behind rights. The State is the opposite of anything remotely principled.



Im talking about reality, not an unworkable daydream of anarchy or non statism. There are no principles behind the concept of rights. Rights are what the society you live in decides they are. Simple as that.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,350,188 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
They don't "come from" anywhere. Society dictates what rights it grants to its citizens. Theoretically this is done by the majority of the people through government, but really doesn't work that way in reality. People within that society's territory have the choice of rebelling against the society's laws, working to change them, or moving to another territory which is more in line with said persons wants and needs.
So government creates rights?
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:41 PM
 
210 posts, read 97,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
So government creates rights?
Society =/= Government
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:43 PM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
They don't "come from" anywhere. Society dictates what rights it grants to its citizens. Theoretically this is done by the majority of the people through government, but really doesn't work that way in reality. People within that society's territory have the choice of rebelling against the society's laws, working to change them, or moving to another territory which is more in line with said persons wants and needs.
No government can control what I believe is right.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:47 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,282,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
No government can control what I believe is right.



I don't think that sort of right is what is being discussed. The government can and does control certain rights granted to you. Such as the right to drive, to vote, to marry, how many legal spouses you can have, how much money you will pay the government for the right to live within its borders, and so forth and so on.


No one is talking morals
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:53 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,282,175 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
So government creates rights?

You are hung up on rights being "created" . Society grants you certain rights. They don't exist somewhere outside of society waiting to be pulled out and conferred upon people. They are the rules that each society draws up for itself about how life in that particular society will be lived. They vary according to society and the prevailing culture of that society .
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:53 PM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
I don't think that sort of right is what is being discussed. The government can and does control certain rights granted to you. Such as the right to drive, to vote, to marry, how many legal spouses you can have, how much money you will pay the government for the right to live within its borders, and so forth and so on.


No one is talking morals
They tried to control one's right to marry. Gay couples married long before the government acknowledged them. There are people with more than one spouse. They even have their own television show. (or did)
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