Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There are always multiple armed people on the loose, everywhere. And some are inspired by the mass shooters who came before them.
Can't imagine LE outright lying about the number of shooters to pacify the general public. More like it would turn into a manhunt.
Can't imagine LE would lie and try to pin the whole thing on an unlikely suspect when it was one or multiple radicalized terrorists.
Can't imagine the so called " deep state" could not come up with a better patsy than an overweight 64 year old, with no criminal record.
I mean why go to the ordeal of the worst mass shooting in modern history and then pin it on an unlikely suspect? No shortage of arm chair anarchists on social media- heck this forum, who have a history of advocating for revolution, civil war, a race war and so on. Or cherry- pick some refugee from, say Somalia.
MSM has, for the most part, moved on from this headline. This thread is old news. Most have moved on. There's a new outrage about something every day.
As an aside I don't believe or disbelieve the criminal profiler interviewed by PEOPLE mag. It was one person's theory no different than all the others. It was the only theory that I came across that spoke to how some of those killed or injured were likely struck by a bullet that left another person's body. You refuted that with physics. Maybe you have a better grasp of it than the profiler. He claims 20 years as a profiler, not ballistic ( right term? ) expert. His take was far more oriented to the mental state of the shooter than anything else.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are people saying this was a hoax. No one died. Just deep state actors. Or those who perpetuate myths of those with contrary perceptions being vanished/ killed. All seem to share one characteristic. They seem to believe they are smarter than most people.
The dumbest people I have ever met are the conspiracy believers. Couldn't find their way out of a paper bag. Never career successful. Lost money in what would be obvious scams to the rest of us. Marks for cons, guilible. And poor listeners as their minds are full of BS.
I think MGM should be boycotted across the board for whatever they're hiding in this shooting. They won't let Campos tell what happened and they damn well sure knew something was going to happen the way they manipulated their stock.
I think MGM should be boycotted across the board for whatever they're hiding in this shooting. They won't let Campos tell what happened and they damn well sure knew something was going to happen the way they manipulated their stock.
they wanted to get the truth out and its why the Campo interview was done by a hardcore investigative journalist like Ellen and not some celebrity/MSM hack
You are building a straw man. MAM has not endorsed the views of the profiler as far as I can see. You are simply raising a side issue as a classical man of straw. He is outside his expertise and likely wrong. So you pointed that out once. This must be the fifth time.
On the contrary. It isn't a strawman on my behalf as it is by her sources and what she's lead to believe because of it. See for yourself.
She's under the impression that
1. Sounds like he may have had some basic familiarity with the rounds, just not physics.
2. His point seems to have been the shooter chose this particular round to cause maximum damage.
3. It's possible the shooter failed to take physics into consideration. Someone on this thread ( you?) posted that his note taking was highly unusual and not indicative of someone who was experienced.
4. That he fired rounds into the aviation fuel tanks also suggests a miscalculation in terms of it triggering an explosion.
5. One has to be above the targets for the most impact, no?
Per her source,
Quote:
An Expert’s Analysis
Followed by
Quote:
Kelly also learned the shooter used .223 Remington rounds, which he says are “not designed to go straight through a person. This round has a devastating tumbling effect and will usually go in one part of the body and come out on another part.”
(Double down with the dumb)Hence, Kelly suspects “that many of the wounded were hit with a round that wounded or killed others.”
That's the strawman, and I just huffed and puffed and blew it to pieces.
It's obvious she's pro firearm legislation following this event, not only due to what happened, but by misinformation by "An Experts Analysis" to reinforce her opinion.
All I'm doing is dismantling myth around a controversial firearm of a particular caliber, and offering based on what she's compelled to believe that she has to be open to the possibility of a shooter firing that caliber closer to the audience as that round doesn't have the capability that is claimed, at 400-500 yards. His location to where he was shooting.
It doesnt. I'll say it again, it doesn't have the capability to do that at 400-500 yards.
If you believe a 223 passes through multiple bodies, then you believe there was a shooter closer to the crowd. Bullets lose velocity over distance. They don't gain velocity and they don't gain weight... it's middle school physics and mathematics to calculate a rounds kinetic energy, joules, and rate of penetration.
If anyone here believes a 223 has the ability to punch through multiple bodies at 400 500 yards, I've got land on Mars I'll sell you cheap.
What I find equally disturbing as the events that had unfolded in Vegas, that people are convinced and easily persuaded by opinion/lie/emotion to be compelled to call for legislation and restrictions based on mythical tumbling rounds, "powerful" intermediate cartridges, basically I find those that lack knowledge of what they seek to ban disturbing based upon the actions of 1, to punish all.
Thus my theory on motive to do what he did, use a rifle, not bombs, he wanted to cause terror and fear. It certainly was an act of terror. Perhaps become a martyr for stricter laws perhaps, especially by deploying a 223 and not a 308 30-06 300 win mag, you know legitimately powerful rounds...
Of course, that will be discredited, it doesn't jive with the rest of what the mass believes and be chalked up to a tin foil conspiracy.
Heck, even Timmyy was quick to discredit me... You yourself have tried multiple times yourself mensch...
If all laws were formed that way, no more cars, trucks, suvs, no more alcohol, no more surgeries, no more sex as diseases that kill can be transmitted, test tube embryos implanted after bodily fluids are screened for procreation.
I simply do not want a nanny state government where emotion leads to legislation, nor do I want further security measures. I don't want or need someone else's protection. You all may be okay with being groped at an air port, and be held up at security for more time wasted for them to search your baggage and your person...
I'm not. Therefore I do not travel via Air, unless it's a dire emergency. I dont live with fear. Im not compelled by it. So if you want more protective measures, as a result of what happened, don't complain you've missed part of a concert, don't complain about missing a part of professional sports game, or don't complain you were inconvenienced at a hotel/motel upon arrival, or being late for a college class or time wasted entering a shopping mall... Because that's what's coming down the line... that's what happens when you trade Liberty for Security. You rely and place faith in a bureaucracy or event/property security to ensure your safety and well being. You're forfeiting your liberties by being reliant on someone/something else.
59 dead 500+ wounded. Not all 500 wounded were from gun shots. Exhibit A my cousin who was at the concert. She fell and skinned her knee when she went to run.
She's on the list of 500 that are wounded for road rash. She was not wounded from a gun shot.
Wait until those numbers are published, on how many were injured from shots vs trips, falls, and trampling. Who'd have thought cowboy boots aren't good for sprinting... and that's what she had on which caused her to trip and fall...
they wanted to get the truth out and its why the campo interview was done by a hardcore investigative journalist like ellen and not some celebrity/msm hack :d
Has anyone here actually PLAYED the "Ellen" slot machine games at MGM? They looked like a lot of fun when she showcased them (also) on her show.
Duh... how much more obvious can I make that to you?
Focus. The 223 doesn't have the energy to do the most damage possible. A 308 does. A 30-06 does. A 338 lapua does. A 300 win mag does. For the how many-th time... it is an intermediate cartridge...
Try again. He worked for NASA and a subsidy of Lockheed-Martin are you kidding me about physics?
One has to be above the targets for the most impact? Nope.
Let's go through this one more time...
You are suggesting a 22 caliber bullet which is moving at around 1500 feet per second and that bullet being a full Metal Jacket Boat Tail, carrying only 300 to 200 ft lbs of energy in a 55 grain projectile at that is not the most damaging round for the how many-th time I have to explain this to you?
If he wanted maximum damage he'd have used a 308 or 300 win mag or 30-06...
To make a statement and strike fear... why not use the most controversial firearm?
Watch the first 5 minutes in the video. This Campos security guard is another fishy side. Dissappears for several days then goes on the Ellen show?
This restaurant, like all big name dining venues in Las Vegas, has multiple private dining venues, nor open to the general public.
Not clear what this media is implying beyond conspiracy. Was this not the same media that ran with the picture of an older guy wearing a pink NASA shirt and kitty hat at a Reno women's rally and claimed it was Paddock and his girlfriend and the attire linked him to leftist interests?
Cept it was not Paddock and the woman was not his girlfriend.
These are the same outlets who claim MSM is fake news and promoting news you won't see anywhere else. Maybe there's a reason why you won't see most of this stuff anywhere else. It tends to be garbage.
On the contrary. It isn't a strawman on my behalf as it is by her sources and what she's lead to believe because of it. See for yourself.
She's under the impression that
1. Sounds like he may have had some basic familiarity with the rounds, just not physics.
2. His point seems to have been the shooter chose this particular round to cause maximum damage.
3. It's possible the shooter failed to take physics into consideration. Someone on this thread ( you?) posted that his note taking was highly unusual and not indicative of someone who was experienced.
4. That he fired rounds into the aviation fuel tanks also suggests a miscalculation in terms of it triggering an explosion.
5. One has to be above the targets for the most impact, no?
Per her source,
Followed by
That's the strawman, and I just huffed and puffed and blew it to pieces.
It's obvious she's pro firearm legislation following this event, not only due to what happened, but by misinformation by "An Experts Analysis" to reinforce her opinion.
All I'm doing is dismantling myth around a controversial firearm of a particular caliber, and offering based on what she's compelled to believe that she has to be open to the possibility of a shooter firing that caliber closer to the audience as that round doesn't have the capability that is claimed, at 400-500 yards. His location to where he was shooting.
It doesnt. I'll say it again, it doesn't have the capability to do that at 400-500 yards.
If you believe a 223 passes through multiple bodies, then you believe there was a shooter closer to the crowd. Bullets lose velocity over distance. They don't gain velocity and they don't gain weight... it's middle school physics and mathematics to calculate a rounds kinetic energy, joules, and rate of penetration.
If anyone here believes a 223 has the ability to punch through multiple bodies at 400 500 yards, I've got land on Mars I'll sell you cheap.
What I find equally disturbing as the events that had unfolded in Vegas, that people are convinced and easily persuaded by opinion/lie/emotion to be compelled to call for legislation and restrictions based on mythical tumbling rounds, "powerful" intermediate cartridges, basically I find those that lack knowledge of what they seek to ban disturbing based upon the actions of 1, to punish all.
Thus my theory on motive to do what he did, use a rifle, not bombs, he wanted to cause terror and fear. It certainly was an act of terror. Perhaps become a martyr for stricter laws perhaps, especially by deploying a 223 and not a 308 30-06 300 win mag, you know legitimately powerful rounds...
Of course, that will be discredited, it doesn't jive with the rest of what the mass believes and be chalked up to a tin foil conspiracy.
Heck, even Timmyy was quick to discredit me... You yourself have tried multiple times yourself mensch...
If all laws were formed that way, no more cars, trucks, suvs, no more alcohol, no more surgeries, no more sex as diseases that kill can be transmitted, test tube embryos implanted after bodily fluids are screened for procreation.
I simply do not want a nanny state government where emotion leads to legislation, nor do I want further security measures. I don't want or need someone else's protection. You all may be okay with being groped at an air port, and be held up at security for more time wasted for them to search your baggage and your person...
I'm not. Therefore I do not travel via Air, unless it's a dire emergency. I dont live with fear. Im not compelled by it. So if you want more protective measures, as a result of what happened, don't complain you've missed part of a concert, don't complain about missing a part of professional sports game, or don't complain you were inconvenienced at a hotel/motel upon arrival, or being late for a college class or time wasted entering a shopping mall... Because that's what's coming down the line... that's what happens when you trade Liberty for Security. You rely and place faith in a bureaucracy or event/property security to ensure your safety and well being. You're forfeiting your liberties by being reliant on someone/something else.
59 dead 500+ wounded. Not all 500 wounded were from gun shots. Exhibit A my cousin who was at the concert. She fell and skinned her knee when she went to run.
She's on the list of 500 that are wounded for road rash. She was not wounded from a gun shot.
Wait until those numbers are published, on how many were injured from shots vs trips, falls, and trampling. Who'd have thought cowboy boots aren't good for sprinting... and that's what she had on which caused her to trip and fall...
You are still building a straw man. I for instance have never disagreed with your analysis. I do disagree with your over kill however. The cartridges used are medium duty compared to heavier rifle cartridges. They would not, of their individual potency, kill as well as a heavier rifle cartridge.
They were however readily available in a system that allowed this perpetrator to deliver a large number of rounds in a short period of time. I suppose he could have gotten up there with a BAR and done a lot more damage but that would have taken some doing.
I am sure the numbers on the wounded will show a number of non gun shot injuries. Initial reports from the hospitals said most of the wounds were gun shot related but that would still allow for a number not.
And again. Your analysis is not wrong merely driven past usefulness.
Duh... how much more obvious can I make that to you?
Focus. The 223 doesn't have the energy to do the most damage possible. A 308 does. A 30-06 does. A 338 lapua does. A 300 win mag does. For the how many-th time... it is an intermediate cartridge...
Try again. He worked for NASA and a subsidy of Lockheed-Martin are you kidding me about physics?
One has to be above the targets for the most impact? Nope.
Let's go through this one more time...
You are suggesting a 22 caliber bullet which is moving at around 1500 feet per second and that bullet being a full Metal Jacket Boat Tail, carrying only 300 to 200 ft lbs of energy in a 55 grain projectile at that is not the most damaging round for the how many-th time I have to explain this to you?
If he wanted maximum damage he'd have used a 308 or 300 win mag or 30-06...
To make a statement and strike fear... why not use the most controversial firearm?
NASA has about 17,000 employees. Likely half of them don't have a grasp of physics.
Paddock was a low level accountant ( not a CPA) and an internal auditor. No understanding of physics is necessary.
I have not found anything credible that supports a claim he worked for NASA. Did I miss something?
He was employed as a low level internal auditor in the latter 80's with a company that later merged with Lockheed Martin. That was 30 years ago.
He previously claimed he was the biggest video poker player in the world during a deposition related to his suit against the Cosmopolitan Hotel ( not MGM) related to a slip and fall. He claimed he played 14 hours a day, 365 days a year and travelled 3/4 weeks a month. He claimed that some nights he would wage up to a $ million. Yet he dressed in old, dirty sweats and flip- flops and refused to tip. Eccentric - yes. Mad man? Who knows?
I cannot comprehend the internal excitement he felt walking amongst the crowds in the days leading up to the big event. I cannot imagine the euphoric power he must of felt while shooting into the crowds below while helpless people dropped or scattered. Why he chose the final night of the multi day event will likely never be known. Perhaps he rehearsed in his suite.
Again, I don't find anything particularily brilliant about his plan to achieve the distinction as the perpretators of the largest mass shooting in modern history. He achieved his goal.
Municipalities/ schools all over the US have been drilling for mass shooting attacks for years. No doubt large entertainment venues will do the same going forward. Unlikely Las Vegas is going to mandate baggage scans/ searches, everywhere. There will likely be more visible security. And life and business will go on.
Let's go through this one last time since you fail to understand something so simple... you believe the profiler's lie... and say it's an opinion.... then it should have been in big bold letters this is not scientific fact but some yahoos opinion based on a myth and lie that the round tumbles...
It's an intermediate cartridge. Meaning more powerful than a pistol cartridge less powerful than a rifle catridge.
And if you believe that is the most "devastating" round I suggest you look up a 45-70 or 300 win mag or 338 lapua. Never mind a 50bmg.
223 is not the most efficient round. Not at 400-500 yards.
Being elevated does not increase its damaging effects.
Here we go again...
Penetration = 55gr × 1500ft per second ^2(squared) divided by 2 × Area × density
55gr = .00786lbs
Average density of the human body is 985kgcubic centimeters convert that to US measurements 61.491541 pounds per cubic foot.
For simplicity sake we will say paddock wants to shoot someone in the chest.
There's your area. Average chest measurement is what... 35 inches?
Plug in the numbers.
1500 feet per second squared is 2,250,000
Multiplied by .00786 pounds
Equals 17,685
2 x 35 inches x 61.491541 equals 4304.40787
17,685 divided by 4304.40787 equals 4.1085790506 inches of penetration
Now let's look at a 308
155 grains FMJBT is moving on average 2000 feet per second at 400 yards.
155gr=.0221
.0221 x 2000 squared = 88,400
Divide 88,400 by 4304.40787
Equals 20.54 inches of penetration.
What's more efficient at 400 yards? 223 or 308? What round is more devastating?
Now let's look at a 30-06
165gr =.0235714 pounds
Moving at an average of 2100 ft per second at 400 yards
.235714 x 2100 squared = 103,949.874
Divide that by 4304.40787
Equals 24.15 inches
What's more powerful and devastating a 223 or a 30-06?
Should I go on?
Why assume the criminal profiler lied? He's not a part of the investigative team. He's not a ballistic ( correct term? ) expert. Imagine that. Someone expressing an opinion to media without a basis or evidence. Not like PEOPLE Mag is going to figure this one out. The majority of his opinion was about the alleged psychology of Paddock, not his choice of weapons/ rounds.
You made your point. Can you consider giving it a rest?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
