55% of Californians Back Trump on School Vouchers (employment, lobby, violent crime)

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

And there are a lot of parents (and grandparents raising kids) who don't care, who can't care, or who are just ignorant about the importance of education. Many assume that if they got by without much of it, their children and grandchildren should be able to as well. As you pointed out, Vvouchers will make their schools worse.



Great points.

If the parents don't care it doesn't mater the quality of the school. Education; its success is and failures, largely start at home. School are not a replacement for up bringing. For those that do care getting them into a quality educational environment should be top priority.

It is like arguing. I kne should get on the life boats while the titanic is sinking because everyone doesn't fit. Save as many children as you can who are in failing schools.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

If the parents don't care it doesn't mater the quality of the school. Education; its success is and failures, largely start at home. School are not a replacement for up bringing. For those that do care getting them into a quality educational environment should be top priority.

It is like arguing. I kne should get on the life boats while the titanic is sinking because everyone doesn't fit. Save as many children as you can who are in failing schools.

Obviously you attended a CA school.

Just kidding.

[harhar]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

If the parents don't care it doesn't mater the quality of the school. Education; its success is and failures, largely start at home. School are not a replacement for up bringing. For those that do care getting them into a quality educational environment should be top priority.

It is like arguing. I kne should get on the life boats while the titanic is sinking because everyone doesn't fit. Save as many children as you can who are in failing schools.

But don't you see the irony here? If the parents who already care, care, then those students will be fine regardless.

Either they will be involved in their students lives and pushing their kids in a public school, or they are sending their kids to a private school.

The important part is the parenting and if the bar is so low that all the parents will have to choose what magical school they go to then that is ultimately not going to work, for the majority in the long term.

Sure you guys are right, it will work in the short term. There is no denying that. But as schools get more and more saturated with gen pop, then you run into the same exact situations with lower paid teachers. You can only have the "Disneyland effect" for so long. It's a band aid at best.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by harhar

But don't you see the irony here? If the parents who already care, care, then those students will be fine regardless.

Either they will be involved in their students lives and pushing their kids in a public school, or they are sending their kids to a private school.

Which they can't afford, most of the time. Especially in expensive places like LA, the Bay Area, or OC. (IN expensive areas with good public schools, like Santa Barbara or Santa Cruz, or those parts of LA County, OC, or the Bay with good public schools, there would not be a problem, but not everyone in those areas can live where there are good public schools.

Sure you guys are right, it will work in the short term. There is no denying that. But as schools get more and more saturated with gen pop, then you run into the same exact situations with lower paid teachers. You can only have the "Disneyland effect" for so long. It's a band aid at best.

Not true. There are different ways of doing things that can work with a non selective population. (Interesting your choice of terminology - you're admitting that conventional public schools particularly in big districts are preparing kids for prison). As long as you have discipline and order then you can have learning, with any population, but recent state and local regulations interfere with this happening. Charters work because they are not subject, or less subject, to many of these regulations, and because all but a few maintain order and safety.

[SportyandMisty]

Originally Posted by AlongTheI-5

School vouchers are nothing more than an attempt by the right wing to get children indoctrinated that they were born to serve the rich. Then there is the religious agenda.

[SportyandMisty]

Originally Posted by CaliRestoration

How is LAUSD being held accountable when 63% can't solve math problems in standardized testing at their own grade level?

I'm a product of the LAUSD. I still remember elementary school math:

"If Johnny has 3 bananas, and Billy has 2 apples, how does Jane feel about the War in Vietnam?"

To this day I struggle with arithmetic. But I know how Jane felt about the War in Vietnam.

Or:

"Our Sun has a color temperature of 5500 degrees K. Alpha Centauri has a color temperature of 5000 degrees K. What is the sum of those color temperatures?"

In WHAT universe would anyone ever add the color temperatures of suns?

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer

I'd support it vs forced busing here in SD.

What 'forced busing'?

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

Choice and vouchers can solve it. If an entity can do it better for the same money then that entity will be successful and expand. And that is exactly what is happening with the explosion of charter schools.


Your argument is basically "schools face problem X, the people running schools have not been able to solve problem X, let's keep letting the people running the schools stay in charge because solving X is hard". I would rather give Y a shot. Sure it might work and it might not, it might solve some of the issues and it might create new issues. At least we are trying something different instead of the current approach that is banging our head against the wall and not realizing that the banging is what is causing our headache. Sure vouchers doesn't fix the problems 100%, but if your child is the group of the portion fixed then vouchers are worth it.

you give far too much credit to charter schools, you act as if they are all better than public schools and they aren't. Their test scores end up being almost identical to public schools with the same demographics. If most of the kids are english speakers, if very few are low income and if the school boundaries are in an area of owner occupied homes vs. large apartment complexes test scores are generally higher.

Open enrollment gives parents the opportunity to enroll their kids in excellent public schools, or they can choose charter schools. Most of the open enrollment schools create an informal contract with the parents that they will volunteer at the school for a certain number of hours a month. I don't think the volunteerism in itself is what makes those schools so good, it's that they attract children whose parents are willing and able to be involved in their child's education.

Under NCLB the parents of a child in a failing school had the legal right to require the school district to transfer the child to a better school, ESSA removed that which I think is a huge mistake. Rather than give vouchers to private schools, I would like to see that right restored and have the district provide or subsidize transportation for low income kids. One of the dilemmas of poor families is that if they get their kid enrolled in a good school they may not have the ability to drive their kid to a school several miles away.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by majoun

Not true. There are different ways of doing things that can work with a non selective population. (Interesting your choice of terminology - you're admitting that conventional public schools particularly in big districts are preparing kids for prison). As long as you have discipline and order then you can have learning, with any population, but recent state and local regulations interfere with this happening. Charters work because they are not subject, or less subject, to many of these regulations, and because all but a few maintain order and safety.

I don't know how to break it to you but public charters in California have to follow the same regulations as public schools. Private schools don't but there is zero evidence that a "lack of regulations" is what makes those schools superior in many cases to public schools, it's just as likely that the children of parents who can afford $10,000 a year tuition would likely excel in any school they attended.

The other issue is that private schools can be selective, they can test children before acceptance and reject any that they think won't be able to keep up. I bet the worst public school in California would have better test scores if they could pick and choose who attended the school, dontcha think?

[majoun]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

you give far too much credit to charter schools, you act as if they are all better than public schools and they aren't. Their test scores end up being almost identical to public schools with the same demographics. If most of the kids are english speakers, if very few are low income and if the school boundaries are in an area of owner occupied homes vs. large apartment complexes test scores are generally higher. .

Sounds like a case of "It's not racism when I say it". Funny how your bigotry is showing through.

"But charter schools have broken the link between poverty and school order; the trend there is actually slightly positive: The higher the concentration of students in poverty at a charter school, the safer those students feel. And after controlling for poverty, disability and race, charter schools still retain a statistically significant safety advantage."

http://www.iwf.org/blog/2804966/Data...Safer-for-Kids

It is rare for charters to be violent and disorderly, and it is extremely common for public schools to be violent and disorderly. Also, if a charter is subpar, it is far easier to close it than it is to close a conventional public school (thanks to the ed unions, who should be abolished.) . Without discipline and order there is no learning.