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Old 11-17-2017, 09:04 AM
 
5,214 posts, read 1,549,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J View Post
It's only a problem from the criminal being shot at. While it is violence and a gun is being used, I do not consider it part of the 'gun violence' problem. The real statistic should be called 'unwarranted gun violence' meaning that a person was just minding their own business when violence was focused at them. Responding with my own violence to stop the threat should have it's own category.

Suicide should not be included in gun violence statistics either. I do not consider there to be any violence at all during that act. If it is considered violence, then there should be drug violence, rope violence and even carbon monoxide violence. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/u...-suicides.html
See post 369. It also applies to defensive shots fired in anger.

 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey View Post
See post 369. It also applies to defensive shots fired in anger.
If people are defending themselves with a gun, maybe the offenders should leave them alone.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
If people are defending themselves with a gun, maybe the offenders should leave them alone.
I'm not arguing whether or not offenders should/should not leave people alone. That has nothing to do with the numbers cited.

At bottom, the claim was that "stand your ground" laws do, in fact, result in offenders leaving people alone through deterrence. If people are defending themselves with a gun, then they are not being left alone and "stand your ground" does not have the deterrent effect claimed.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:22 AM
 
Location: USA
16,939 posts, read 8,680,788 times
Reputation: 12749
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey View Post
I'm not arguing whether or not offenders should/should not leave people alone. That has nothing to do with the numbers cited.

At bottom, the claim was that "stand your ground" laws do, in fact, result in offenders leaving people alone through deterrence. If people are defending themselves with a gun, then they are not being left alone and "stand your ground" does not have the deterrent effect claimed.
If criminals realize that their potential victims may be armed, and have the ability to shoot back, and defend themselves LEGALLY without retribution, they are less likely to attack them.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:26 AM
 
9,431 posts, read 4,541,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey View Post
I'm not arguing whether or not offenders should/should not leave people alone. That has nothing to do with the numbers cited.

At bottom, the claim was that "stand your ground" laws do, in fact, result in offenders leaving people alone through deterrence. If people are defending themselves with a gun, then they are not being left alone and "stand your ground" does not have the deterrent effect claimed.
Because criminals by nature are stupid. They are just more likely to get shot in a "stand your ground" state, thankfully. I certainly have no sympathy for criminals who get shot.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
If criminals realize that their potential victims may be armed, and have the ability to shoot back, and defend themselves LEGALLY without retribution, they are less likely to attack them.
Yes, that's the seductive and seemingly logical belief being peddled by NY_Refugee. Except that the numbers and studies show that the opposite is true. Why is that? Beats me, but that's what it is.

Again, if there are plenty of States that have adopted "stand your ground." Thus far, no one has provided any data supporting the premise that "stand your ground" significantly deters crime or reduces gun violence despite the availability of plenty of data on the subject. All I see is conjecture which, in light of data that appears to refute that conjecture, falls well short of proving that a National "stand your ground" law will solve all gun-related ills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
Because criminals by nature are stupid. They are just more likely to get shot in a "stand your ground" state, thankfully. I certainly have no sympathy for criminals who get shot.
You've missed the point. I'm not talking about sympathy or stupidity. The argument was that "stand your ground" is so powerful a deterrent that it will significantly reduce crime and gun violence. If you are correct, then "stand your ground" does not deter crime and gun violence, as claimed by NY_Refugee. Therefore, it is not the solution to crime and gun violence that he claims.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:28 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,164 posts, read 11,585,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey View Post
Another poster argued that crime and gun violence could be drastically reduced, if not eliminated, by the expansion of "stand your ground laws" and ubiquitous gun ownership. All I did cite a study and hard data that refutes that premise. Do you have any empirical support for the argument that "stand your ground" laws reduce gun violence or crime? Any at all?

"I don't believe in statistics" and "I don't take studies seriously" is not an argument. If you don't like certain statistics, refute them. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

In any event, I would call "defensive shots fired in anger" that result in death a problem. Why you would exclude them, I don't know.

Your last question sorta makes my point for me. How is it they can be included? Is my response. These defensive shootings, and these include both citizen and police actions, do indeed show a problem, but the problem is with the individual who has been shot. Not because they have been shot. Fact is that some people need shooting. Some deserve to be. Some fall into both.


And they are hardly "tragic deaths" in any of the three categories. Seeing them included I shooting statistics that are used to make stand your ground or just gun ownership look bad is rather...disingenuous. Dontcha think? The problem was not someone defending themselves, the problem is they needed to. Such cases cannot be fairly used to reflect "tragic deaths." They can however be used to reflect "good riddance."


The fact you admit these cases are used in these statistics makes my point for me. Saves me having to post 5 pages of numbers no one is going to read over anyway.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:33 AM
 
5,214 posts, read 1,549,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Your last question sorta makes my point for me. How is it they can be included? Is my response. These defensive shootings, and these include both citizen and police actions, do indeed show a problem, but the problem is with the individual who has been shot. Not because they have been shot. Fact is that some people need shooting. Some deserve to be. Some fall into both.

And they are hardly "tragic deaths" in any of the three categories. Seeing them included I shooting statistics that are used to make stand your ground or just gun ownership look bad is rather...disingenuous. Dontcha think? The problem was not someone defending themselves, the problem is they needed to. Such cases cannot be fairly used to reflect "tragic deaths." They can however be used to reflect "good riddance."

The fact you admit these cases are used in these statistics makes my point for me. Saves me having to post 5 pages of numbers no one is going to read over anyway.
See my response to Floorist in post 376. The numbers show that "stand your ground" is not an effective deterrent to crime. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not talking about tragic deaths or good riddance.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:39 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,138,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
Thanks for proving my point, that you are clueless when it comes to firearms, well done
Nah, the people who are 'clueless' about firearms are those who think they reduce crime.
 
Old 11-17-2017, 09:42 AM
 
Location: USA
16,939 posts, read 8,680,788 times
Reputation: 12749
[quote=TEPLimey;50156074]See my response to Floorist in post 376. The numbers show that "stand your ground" is not an effective deterrent to crime. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not talking about tragic deaths or good riddance.[/QUOTE

Until the last year or two under Obama who demonized police to the point they were afraid to react, violen crime has gone way down since legal CCW permits, and stand your ground laws have been more prevalent. Causation, or correlation? Not sure, but the fact is legal gun ownership, and carry is a good thing for potential victims of violent crime, as at it least gives them a chance at self defense. It also most likely IS a deterrent. Criminals are cowards, and like SOFT TARGETS. That is why they LOVE gun free zones, as they know they will be the only ones armed.
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