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Old 11-17-2017, 09:24 PM
Status: "Not quite my tempo" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Bran's tree
10,953 posts, read 4,813,460 times
Reputation: 12344

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
I employ people who depend on my company for a job and income, shall I fire them to get a "real job"?
That's exactly one reason I support single payer rather than effectively thing it to employment. There'd be much more flexibility and mobility in terms of career choices, and more people could start businesses.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
4,760 posts, read 6,409,050 times
Reputation: 5236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
Be realistic. If the ACA was repealed tomorrow, and insurance companies were able have their way with people, you think they'd lower their prices much? Hell no. They know people will take what they can get.

And even if you do pay, good luck getting them to actually provide coverage when you need it. They can just all decide to not cover you.

And then what?

You are absolutely correct. I've said time and time again that the genie is now out of the bottle and there is no way to put it back in. You can't undo that many people now have their inexpensive "healthcare" and you can't undo the fact that insurers are going to get as much as they can while they can. Perhaps they know something we don't...or are too shortsighted to see?

The insurance companies were given a free pass to offer crap coverage with exorbitant rates.

This bill was masterfully designed so that single-payer would be the only fix. The Lord may giveth and taketh but, no politician hoping to be re-elected will taketh. It's political suicide. So, that leaves single payer. A chess player would be envious of the tactic and execution.

If there is a fix that does not involve single payer, it will hurt a lot of people. I'd say it may even be necessary. Harsh? Maybe. But there needs to be a reset of the healthcare system that does not involve the government running the show.

Again, I ask, what program does the government administer that is more efficient and/or reliable than a private sector alternative?

For the people referencing the cost of healthcare; for how long has it been so expensive to receive quality healthcare? Did medicare/medicaid have anything to do with the gradual increase in costs? You could make the argument that government-backed college loans caused a rise in tuition (becuase the colleges knew they would get the money). Would it be such a huge leap to arrive at the conclusion that government involvement caused healthcare prices to rise? I'm not being a smartash here. I'm honestly asking.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:15 PM
 
6,266 posts, read 3,382,849 times
Reputation: 3449
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
your post doesn't make sense.
I myself recall being one of those young people who didn't need insurance, and have tried to teach my kids not to do the same. But I doubt that our government was very concerned about foolish young people when they mandated everyone purchase health insurance. I believe they were motivated by money .... wanting to grab as much as possible from the young to keep the ACA afloat.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
4,760 posts, read 6,409,050 times
Reputation: 5236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
That's exactly one reason I support single payer rather than effectively thing it to employment. There'd be much more flexibility and mobility in terms of career choices, and more people could start businesses.

Who pays for single payer? Taxpayers.

If that is yet another tax someone has to pay, why would you take the risk of starting a new business knowing you have to pony up to cover the burden?

I honestly cannot have faith in the government to provide healthcare for us at a reasonable cost. This is, after all, the same group of people who gave us the $500 toilet seat and $1000 hammer. The same group of people who spent millions on art for a VA hospital rather than spent those same millions on equipment or treatment, or even transportation. That's some benevolent **** right there.

I agree that single payer sounds nice in theory. All of our healthcare problems gone in an instant. Healthcare administered by a dedicated and caring group of people.

The reality has the potential to be less like that and more like a 3 Stooges episode. But, instead of a few laughs, your chart gets deleted and instead of going under the knife to have your tonsils out, you get your right leg removed. Oops, it was a minor glitch in the system.

The government can't, or won't, reliably run the programs they currently have. Do you really want to turn your well-being over to those same people? Look, I hate the insurance companies and medical companies as much as the next guy. Lots of them are scum worthy of nothing more than a swift beating a bullet to the back of the head. But the reality is there is at least a tiny shred of accountability. With our government running the system, there will be none.

Right now we know what insurance companies will and will not cover. You have the option to shop for suitable coverage, at least to some extent. Who do you complain to when the single-payer savior stops covering your blood pressure medication? Or your request for a sleep study gets lost in a pile of paperwork? How about when that cancer treatment no longer meets some imagined budgetary guideline? The answer to all of those is, you have no one to complain to and no options.

And, for the love of God, stop comparing the US to other countries. We are not any other country. What may appear to work for some European country may not have even a remote chance of working here. It's a one-size-fits-all mentality and is shallow thinking, at best. We have a uniquely American problem that will not be solved by a generic solution.

Also, stop and think about the downside to your lovely single payer solution. There is never a time where a solution has no downside. There is always a negative, somewhere. Those of you so strongly advocating single payer really need to stop for a moment and be your own worst critic. Think about why so many people are opposed to it. Understand why people are against it. Until you can apply that kind of critical thinking, you're just coming across as a lunatic who thinks government is the answer to all of our problems.
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Old 11-18-2017, 01:04 AM
 
23,843 posts, read 11,847,356 times
Reputation: 10058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord View Post
Good for you.

If there's anything I've learned from the conservative movement is that life is never fair. You should always try to make the best of the hand you're dealt with. Whining about it doesn't do anything helpful at all.

What I have also taken from the conservative movement is the world doesn't owe you anything. If you don't like where you're standing, move.
And nobody gets anything because of me. I like it that way.

I take care of me. I am not responsible for taking care of others.

Pay for your own stuff.
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Old 11-18-2017, 01:21 AM
Status: "Not quite my tempo" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Bran's tree
10,953 posts, read 4,813,460 times
Reputation: 12344
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
Who pays for single payer? Taxpayers.

If that is yet another tax someone has to pay, why would you take the risk of starting a new business knowing you have to pony up to cover the burden?

I honestly cannot have faith in the government to provide healthcare for us at a reasonable cost. This is, after all, the same group of people who gave us the $500 toilet seat and $1000 hammer. The same group of people who spent millions on art for a VA hospital rather than spent those same millions on equipment or treatment, or even transportation. That's some benevolent **** right there.

I agree that single payer sounds nice in theory. All of our healthcare problems gone in an instant. Healthcare administered by a dedicated and caring group of people.

The reality has the potential to be less like that and more like a 3 Stooges episode. But, instead of a few laughs, your chart gets deleted and instead of going under the knife to have your tonsils out, you get your right leg removed. Oops, it was a minor glitch in the system.

The government can't, or won't, reliably run the programs they currently have. Do you really want to turn your well-being over to those same people? Look, I hate the insurance companies and medical companies as much as the next guy. Lots of them are scum worthy of nothing more than a swift beating a bullet to the back of the head. But the reality is there is at least a tiny shred of accountability. With our government running the system, there will be none.

Right now we know what insurance companies will and will not cover. You have the option to shop for suitable coverage, at least to some extent. Who do you complain to when the single-payer savior stops covering your blood pressure medication? Or your request for a sleep study gets lost in a pile of paperwork? How about when that cancer treatment no longer meets some imagined budgetary guideline? The answer to all of those is, you have no one to complain to and no options.

And, for the love of God, stop comparing the US to other countries. We are not any other country. What may appear to work for some European country may not have even a remote chance of working here. It's a one-size-fits-all mentality and is shallow thinking, at best. We have a uniquely American problem that will not be solved by a generic solution.

Also, stop and think about the downside to your lovely single payer solution. There is never a time where a solution has no downside. There is always a negative, somewhere. Those of you so strongly advocating single payer really need to stop for a moment and be your own worst critic. Think about why so many people are opposed to it. Understand why people are against it. Until you can apply that kind of critical thinking, you're just coming across as a lunatic who thinks government is the answer to all of our problems.
Nah. I'm just not a lunatic who thinks letting businesses have completely free reign is the answer to all our problems. (You didn't say that, but see how silly hyperbole is? )

Of course there are downsides to single payer healthcare, nothing is perfect. But the disastrous medical errors you're describing happen already - it's ŕ surprisingly high ranking cause of death in the US.

But it's interesting that you paint that issue as likely being greatly exacerbated by government involvement when for the vast majority of countries that have some form of universal healthcare (not just European countries) don't have hordes of one-legged patients hobbling around.

Do you surmise that the US government is uniquely incompetent relative to governments of other nations? If that's the case, maybe people need to reevaluate their voting choices.

Or is it the large population that makes a universal healthcare option impossible? If that's the case, wouldn't the opposite be the case due to economies of scale? And regardless, what would be wrong with universal healthcare systems enacted by state rather than the entire country? California, the largest state, is still under half the population of Germany.

Having a public healthcare option would have its issues, but it'd be far outweighed by the fact that most people would be able to get the healthcare they needed. Pre-ACA, the same issues existed, *and* millions of Americans were completely shut out of healthcare altogether. I don't see how this would be better.

And government probably has more accountability than insurance companies - government can be voted in and out every few years. Insurance companies pretty much share a captive market.
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Old 11-18-2017, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
7,982 posts, read 2,739,768 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Did you ask yourself what Trump's actions have done to assist in the rise in premiums. Here in South Caorlina, Blue Cross Blue Shield admitted they are raising their rates to cover the potential repeal and replacement of Obamacare. They are doing it just in case.
Trump's actions would be irrelevant if Dems hadn't shoved Obamacare down the country's throat.

In fact, I think one could hypothesize that Trump would not be President now at all if Dems had left well enough alone or at least passed legislation that actually addressed the costs of health care........because the ACA sure didn't.
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Old 11-18-2017, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
22,700 posts, read 16,180,953 times
Reputation: 12700
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
You got something right. Both parties are supposed to work together but when Democrats shoved this asinine welfare program called Obamacare through, they didn't get republicans input. And now they want republicans to work with them lol.

And I haven't given a damn since. Let the thing blow up, let people lose their insurance, what do I care?
They got Republican input. Over one hundred amendments from Republicans were included in the final bill.

Look it up.
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Old 11-18-2017, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Caverns measureless to man...
7,241 posts, read 4,638,316 times
Reputation: 16326
Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post

I've been playing catc-up on this thread after a couple rough days at work, but I had to stop at this post.

Are you insane?
Mmmm.... nope; I'm pretty sure not...



Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
Do you really believe that having government-run healthcare is going to work even half as well as you hope?
Yep. Sure do!



Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
I can't think of a single thing the government administers where it works as intended. I'd say the military might be the only one, but that really isn't the case.
I can't think of a single thing in the universe that runs exactly as intended. The test of whether or not something works is - does it work well enough? Most things administered by the government don't work as well as they could, but do work as well as they need to work. I see no reason to assume our government couldn't do as well on health care as other governments do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
I don't buy into the death panel conspiracies, but I cannot imagine a scenario where a government-run healthcare system is more efficient or reliable than a private sector system.
Why not? Every other country in the world does it, and most developed countries have much better outcomes than out health care system does. And they spend s lot less money doing it, too. Why do you think we can't? Is there something about the United States that makes us more incompetent tnan any other country on Earth?



Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
Yes, I know there are a tremendous amount of faults with the system we have now, but there are things that could be tried to remedy many of those faults. For instance, purchasing across state lines.
How do you think that would help? You do realize, don't you, that 5 states already allow that, but no insurance companies want to do it? Because they can't make any money at it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
I would much prefer we exhaust all private sector options before even entertaining the idea of giving government more power.
Haven't we? What's left to try?


Quote:
Originally Posted by spankys bbq View Post
For the people referencing the cost of healthcare; for how long has it been so expensive to receive quality healthcare? Did medicare/medicaid have anything to do with the gradual increase in costs? You could make the argument that government-backed college loans caused a rise in tuition (becuase the colleges knew they would get the money). Would it be such a huge leap to arrive at the conclusion that government involvement caused healthcare prices to rise? I'm not being a smartash here. I'm honestly asking.
Yeah, it would.

Medicare and Medicad did drive an increase in costs, but not because of "meddling" - by increasing access, which in turn increased the demand for health care, which made it more expensive. The ACA has actually caused deep cuts in the rise of health care costs, which are already starting to show up in premiums in some states. Trump and the Republican Congress are reversing that trend with their efforts to sabotage the ACA.

Here, this is a good introductory article to give you an overview of the evolution of health care costs.

https://www.thebalance.com/causes-of...-costs-4064878



Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerlily24 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
you got something right. Both parties are supposed to work together but when democrats shoved this asinine welfare program called obamacare through, they didn't get republicans input. And now they want republicans to work with them lol.

And i haven't given a damn since. Let the thing blow up, let people lose their insurance, what do i care?
they got republican input. Over one hundred amendments from republicans were included in the final bill.

Look it up.
147 amendments in the Senate version alone - plus, 25 days of public debate on the Senate floor, and dozens of public hearings over a period of at least 8 months.... none of which happened when the Republicans tried to repeal it this past summer.

Sorry, but this right wing propaganda about the Democrats not allowing the Republicans or the public to participate in the ACA process is nothing but a bald-faced lie.

Last edited by Mr. In-Between; 11-18-2017 at 07:46 PM..
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Old 11-18-2017, 07:48 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
13,912 posts, read 10,873,846 times
Reputation: 12662
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Before Obamacare our insurance premiums for both DH and I was $450.00 a month. after Obamacare it went up to over $600, then it went up to $920 for 2017. And for 2018 our premiums are $1,528 a MONTH

How in the HELL do Democrats think Obamacare is a good thing? In what f***n world? That's it, we are done, dropping out, and believe me, I'm not the only one being raked over the coals, more people will drop out and Obamacare = CRASH AND BURN! scr*w it! I hope it does and I don't care who loses insurance and don't whine "what about the poor", do the poor give a damn if I lose insurance, of course they don't.

And here's Obama saying insurance premiums would go down ... jack ass! Now lets hear how I should just pay it and shut up. Anything they would have done would be better than this but Democrats had to block that too. A bunch of jack asses.

That's all well and good.

Now tell me... You really think you'll be paying less under whatever Trump cooks up? :-)
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