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Old 11-18-2017, 11:46 AM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,944 posts, read 42,240,040 times
Reputation: 43395

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlulu23 View Post
A "rain tax"????? That is absurd. Why don't they just do something about the actual cause of the high nitrogen levels? Or does that make too much sense.
Be careful what you wish for. The " rain tax" wasn't a Maryland only thing but imposed upon the states by by the EPA. What happened here was the state mandated the nine largest Counties collect a specific stormwater runoff tax to pay for stormwater management. The rest of the jurisdictions were left to fund the new requirements however they wanted.

As far as "doing" something, it's already been done. Each County and municipality in the state has to have a Watershed Implementation Plan detailing efforts to meet the Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) of pollutants that are discharged into waterways.
https://www.epa.gov/tmdl

Included in that was the initial mandate to upgrade all sewage treatment plants of 500000 gallons per day capacity and above to an Enhanced Nitrogen Removal process. Smaller sewer treatment plants also had to do, they just didn't qualify for Flush Tax bonds when the requirement was imposed. New septic systems also have to meet the new standards while septics that fail have to be replaced with the newer process ones.

If your response is "Damn, that sounds expensive", you would be correct.

As a note, bringing more than two cartons of cigarettes into the State has been illegal for decades. Most of the people who've been arrested for it the last few years are one particular County's cops.

 
Old 11-18-2017, 12:16 PM
 
7,977 posts, read 5,065,845 times
Reputation: 13643
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
...It's very different when you are the new kid on the block.
This endemically is the bane of relocation to smaller cities, or to towns. Upon moving to NYC from the hinterlands, nobody will raise any eyebrows upon beholding the newcomer. Nobody will care if the newcomer spouts off, about traditions from "back home". Now try the reverse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I moved to Ohio from the NYC suburbs, which, contrary to popular belief, is not wildly liberal. It's about half and half, with some towns more right, and others more left.

NE OH is pretty similar. Mixed and tolerant. Not ALL places are.
Indeed, Ohio is not monolithic. It's an oft-mentioned microcosm of the entire US, in terms of political leanings, because it does have aspects associated with different regions throughout the US. NE Ohio is associated with the urbanized NE portion of the US. My portion of Ohio - Southwest - is more akin to the US south, save for harsher winters, cloudy skies, and collapse of automotive industry.

The urban/rural divide is larger than the divide between states. Western Massachusetts or upstate NY probably have more in common with rural Ohio (or Alabama), than with NYC or Boston. Cleveland has more in common with NYC, than with the counties 100 miles south of it. If we're going to relocate for purposes of congregating with politically like-minded people, it probably makes more sense to move into (or out of) the city of one's home-state, than to move to another state, let alone across the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_because View Post
The total tax burden (state income tax, property tax, sales tax) in "high tax" Vermont (ranked #3 in the US) is 10.75% and the total tax burden in "low tax" Virginia (ranked #40) is 7.6%. That's only around a 3% difference and those states are on the pretty extreme ends of the scale.
Actual tax rates are highly situational. A retiree with a high-7-figure portfolio, replete with dividend-paying stocks, is going to have a markedly different situation from say that of a mid-career professional. Most states tax investment-income just as they do earned-income, and some states are “tax-free” for earned income, but do tax investment income (example: Tennessee). So, suppose that you’re paying 20% federal income tax on long-term capital gains, and then the state charges another 7%. But suppose that you actually spend only 10% of your annual income. With those numbers, the difference between the no-tax state, and the 7%-tax state, is a 70% cost of living increase… not, by my reckoning, trivial.

On the other hand, for a family of 4, with two income earners and not a lot of investments, priority #1 is good schools, #2 is inexpensive housing, and everything else is a distant #3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_because View Post
Also, in the end, most Republicans and Democrats share similar values and are not that far off as sensationalists try to make us believe. Both want good schools for kids, jobs, law and order, good roads, availability of healthcare, clean water and safe food, etc.
It does stand to reason, that actual political distinctions are less acute among the general public, than among the so-called leadership, or the commentariat. But what does vary a considerable amount, is intensity of religious fervor, and class-based matters of taste.

It's hard for an atheist and a born-again Christian to form bonds of friendship, beyond mere cordiality and neighborly deference. Reasonable people can be polite, and get along. But they may still struggle to find the sort of consonance of values that's core to true friendship. On the matter of class and taste, two attorneys - one of whom listens to Rush Limbaugh, the other to Bill Moyers - can still golf together, and maybe their families will go on a cruise together. What about the attorney and a landscaper, or a night-watchman?

Disagreement about "politics" is often a heuristic for class-differences. Somebody who spent 5 years in graduate school is going to struggle to feel kinship in a community where most people didn't advance beyond high-school. We call this difference "political". But the more forthright distinction is one of class - something that's even more taboo in modern American society, than race or religion.

Last edited by ohio_peasant; 11-18-2017 at 12:44 PM..
 
Old 11-18-2017, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Mexico City (at the moment)
1,346 posts, read 473,816 times
Reputation: 1963
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Be careful what you wish for. The " rain tax" wasn't a Maryland only thing but imposed upon the states by by the EPA. What happened here was the state mandated the nine largest Counties collect a specific stormwater runoff tax to pay for stormwater management. The rest of the jurisdictions were left to fund the new requirements however they wanted.

As far as "doing" something, it's already been done. Each County and municipality in the state has to have a Watershed Implementation Plan detailing efforts to meet the Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) of pollutants that are discharged into waterways.
https://www.epa.gov/tmdl

Included in that was the initial mandate to upgrade all sewage treatment plants of 500000 gallons per day capacity and above to an Enhanced Nitrogen Removal process. Smaller sewer treatment plants also had to do, they just didn't qualify for Flush Tax bonds when the requirement was imposed. New septic systems also have to meet the new standards while septics that fail have to be replaced with the newer process ones.

If your response is "Damn, that sounds expensive", you would be correct.
Those measures you mention still do not completely address how the primary source of excess nitogen and phosphorus (the primary pollutants) gets into the stormwater and is affecting Chesapeake Bay , which are by agricultural means. But hey, let's tax a guy with a roof and a driveway anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
As a note, bringing more than two cartons of cigarettes into the State has been illegal for decades. Most of the people who've been arrested for it the last few years are one particular County's cops.
Looks like we are both off the mark a bit. It used to be a one carton limit, and was raised to five in 2013 under O'Malley, due to backlash from the taxes. But with a state bordering 4 other states (and a district) that have large metro areas within fairly easy drive, it was a measure in futility with a (still) too low legal limit in my opinion. I had a military friend get nabbed at a sobriety checkpoint for bringing too many cartons in from Virginia, he was just on his way through Maryland.. The dirty cops do not suprise me though.

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2013RS/Ch...74_sb0069t.pdf

Last edited by snebarekim; 11-18-2017 at 01:09 PM..
 
Old 11-18-2017, 01:16 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,944 posts, read 42,240,040 times
Reputation: 43395
Quote:
Originally Posted by snebarekim View Post
Those measures you mention still do not completely address how the primary source of excess nitogen and phosphorus (the primary pollutants) gets into the stormwater and is affecting Chesapeake Bay , which are by agricultural means. But hey, let's tax a guy with a roof and a driveway anyway.



Looks like we are both off the mark a bit. It used to be a one carton limit, and was raised to five in 2013 under O'Malley, due to backlash from the taxes. But with a state bordering 4 other states (and a district) that have large metro areas within fairly easy drive, it was a measure in futility with a (still) too low legal limit in my opinion. I had a military friend get nabbed at a sobriety checkpoint for bringing too many cartons in from Virginia. The dirty cops do not suprise me though.

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2013RS/Ch...74_sb0069t.pdf
They've pretty much done what can be done with agricultural without completely destroying farming in the state.

Unless you count all the nitrogen and phosphorus from suburban lawns washing into the Bay as agriculture, that's been identified as a major source of non-point source pollution. That's not even mentioning all the dog **** runoff.

When this adventure began the early regulations were going to require that localities retrofit holding catchments in their stormwater systems to let pollutants settle out. Fortunately cooler head somewhat prevailed and that's not a requirement. Yet.

The cigarette thing I didn't pay much attention to since I gave up smuggling years ago. And that was just beer. For some reason people in Maryland consider Rolling Rock a gourmet craft beer.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Williamsburg, VA
3,551 posts, read 1,669,252 times
Reputation: 10174
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
Is picking a place to live by political leanings a new thing?
Nah, people have always been like that. Except, of course, for the people who are attracted to places because the locals there are different. Or those who have practical issues, like needing to find a place where they can get a good job. But I think most people choose to live with others who share their belief system if it's an option.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Williamsburg, VA
3,551 posts, read 1,669,252 times
Reputation: 10174
If you want to know why people in the Retirement Forum do something, why not ask them? Since they're more likely to know the specifics, they can give you a better answer. We're just guessing.

Having said that, here's my guess: Lots of people come to CD as a first step when they are just still in the daydreaming phase of retirement planning. So my guess is this accounts for a lot of the posts you're wondering about (well, that and the fact that Retirement Forum seems to attract a high number of people who try to find ways to slip politics into a non-political forum.)

Getting back to the daydreamers, lots of posters try on ideas of what they might want, in much the same way people try on lots of different wedding dresses. Often they end up settling on something completely different from what they first thought they wanted.

Some post lengthy wish lists, and that's part of the process, too. They'll consider town after town, and eventually realize no town will offer everything on the list. That's when posters start becoming interesting, IMO. You watch them slowly whittling items from the wish list, and it becomes interesting to see what makes the final cut and how their priorities change.

What I've observed over the years:

1. In reality about half will end up realizing the most practical move is to simply stay where they are. Is it because they like the political leanings where they live? Maybe for a few people, but for most of the posters it seems like other issues end up being the reasons they stay in place.

2. For those that do move, the top reasons usually have something to do with being near family.

3. After that, affordability, being near a good medical center, and weather issues make it onto the list.

4. Once those things are accounted for, things like transportation needs, low taxes, and being near a place where they can find a part time job if needed make it onto the list.

5. If they can get all these needs met, then retirees start looking for things like a community where people have similar political beliefs. Which is not to say political beliefs won't make it onto a fair number of lists. It's not something that you need, but many people feel its important if they can get more important needs worked out.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 01:46 PM
Status: "LILY DALE!" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,304,965 times
Reputation: 48877
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
This endemically is the bane of relocation to smaller cities, or to towns. Upon moving to NYC from the hinterlands, nobody will raise any eyebrows upon beholding the newcomer. Nobody will care if the newcomer spouts off, about traditions from "back home". Now try the reverse!



Indeed, Ohio is not monolithic. It's an oft-mentioned microcosm of the entire US, in terms of political leanings, because it does have aspects associated with different regions throughout the US. NE Ohio is associated with the urbanized NE portion of the US. My portion of Ohio - Southwest - is more akin to the US south, save for harsher winters, cloudy skies, and collapse of automotive industry.

The urban/rural divide is larger than the divide between states. Western Massachusetts or upstate NY probably have more in common with rural Ohio (or Alabama), than with NYC or Boston. Cleveland has more in common with NYC, than with the counties 100 miles south of it. If we're going to relocate for purposes of congregating with politically like-minded people, it probably makes more sense to move into (or out of) the city of one's home-state, than to move to another state, let alone across the country.



Actual tax rates are highly situational. A retiree with a high-7-figure portfolio, replete with dividend-paying stocks, is going to have a markedly different situation from say that of a mid-career professional. Most states tax investment-income just as they do earned-income, and some states are “tax-free” for earned income, but do tax investment income (example: Tennessee). So, suppose that you’re paying 20% federal income tax on long-term capital gains, and then the state charges another 7%. But suppose that you actually spend only 10% of your annual income. With those numbers, the difference between the no-tax state, and the 7%-tax state, is a 70% cost of living increase… not, by my reckoning, trivial.

On the other hand, for a family of 4, with two income earners and not a lot of investments, priority #1 is good schools, #2 is inexpensive housing, and everything else is a distant #3.



It does stand to reason, that actual political distinctions are less acute among the general public, than among the so-called leadership, or the commentariat. But what does vary a considerable amount, is intensity of religious fervor, and class-based matters of taste.

It's hard for an atheist and a born-again Christian to form bonds of friendship, beyond mere cordiality and neighborly deference. Reasonable people can be polite, and get along. But they may still struggle to find the sort of consonance of values that's core to true friendship. On the matter of class and taste, two attorneys - one of whom listens to Rush Limbaugh, the other to Bill Moyers - can still golf together, and maybe their families will go on a cruise together. What about the attorney and a landscaper, or a night-watchman?

Disagreement about "politics" is often a heuristic for class-differences. Somebody who spent 5 years in graduate school is going to struggle to feel kinship in a community where most people didn't advance beyond high-school. We call this difference "political". But the more forthright distinction is one of class - something that's even more taboo in modern American society, than race or religion.


An excellent post!

Ohio is far from monolithic - on any level, After leaving Long Island NY, we tried NE Pennsylvania. Not a good fit. Ohio is referred to as a "Bell Weather" state with good reason. It is diverse, and tends to be moderate.

We moved, specifically from Suffolk County NY, long a right wing strong hold for working class people priced out of neighboring Nassau County, which borders NYC and is largely "Old School Republican".

Within Suffolk County there are exceptions - but none are monolithically progressive the way (much of) New England can feel to a conservative, or the way the (much of) the South can feel to a progressive.

Exceptions in Suffolk include Huntington, Port Jefferson Village, Sayville (which is near Gay friendly Fire Island) and The Three Village area - Stony Brook The Setaukets, and Old Field, which is tempered by the presence of Stony Brook University, one of SUNY's "flagship universities", and a large research university and it's medical center.

The educational level there is high. So politics are tempered with "class and taste" as Ohio Peasant writes. Most people are professionals. There is a high international community, owing to the presence of the university, and a higher than normal percentage of out of state transplants.

The schools are excellent - and I would have no difficulty recommending the area to Republicans, from say the Midwest, who are looking for a good school district and a historical and picturesque area. Republicans would find many other people with similar views, and friendly, tolerant progressives.

The reverse is also true. That part of Long Island is home to a large Unitarian Universalisist Congregation, and three evangelical churches, with much in between. There are (last I checked) at least five Jewish Centers - ranging from reformed, conservative and orthodox. There is also a large and growing non Christian presence, including people of the Islamic faith. Everyone seems to get along.

Here in OH, Ohio Peasant presented it much better than I could have. My area is home to people of many different political stripes, including that seemingly vanishing breed, The Moderate.

Yes. We have them here.

In general, I would not recommend that a progressive move to (much of) the Deep South. Nor would I recommend that a deeply conservative family move to (much of) New England, although there are rural areas and some states that are more conservative.

I would disagree to some extent, with Ohio Peasant about western Massachusetts. Not all of it is conservative or even moderate. The Pioneer Valley, home to the Five College Consortium ( UMass Amerherst, Amherst, Hampshire, Mount Holyoke, and Smith Colleges, is progressive, as are (most) of the Berkshires.

In general, when selecting an area to move to another region of the country, examining the political, social and educational attainment of the populace is far from unreasonable. In fact, in today's striated political climate, one would be remiss not to do so.



Politics are tempered by class and education. There. I used the "C" word. But, it's true.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 01:51 PM
Status: "LILY DALE!" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,304,965 times
Reputation: 48877
In terms of property taxes, here is OH, I pay $1500 per YEAR. Local friends call that "High". I have to laugh, coming from a place where $300 to $1000 per month was normative.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 02:46 PM
 
306 posts, read 474,208 times
Reputation: 1010
People tend to move to southern Utah expecting some kind of low tax conservative utopia. I even had someone who planned to move in tell me to move out because I'm not what he envisions a true conservative idealized Utahn to be. I'm much more of a libertarian mind-your-own-business type than a social totalitarian which caused him to read me as "liberal." I wish some of the people who post on City Data who think they will find their political and social paradise would update their threads after they move. I want to know how many are howling mad because their new home doesn't fit their fantasy, and how many are happy after they've settled into the reality.
 
Old 11-18-2017, 03:09 PM
 
3,145 posts, read 1,737,652 times
Reputation: 3520
Quote:
Originally Posted by wherewhatwho View Post
I don't see how it's any different from people seeking out others similar to them in other ways. It's how you end up with ethnic or religious enclaves. How do you think certain areas became liberal or conservative in the first place?
I don't think it is from people CHOOSING to move here or there although that happens when they move after retirement for lower or no state taxes. Most Southern states and red states have low state taxes and no estate tax. They are also conservative, often poorer, with not very good public schools. OK for retirees if they are looking for lower cost of living.

Mostly people move because of jobs and job growth is more in the blue states. These are also, younger, and more of them have college degrees, and liberal. These have higher taxes, better schools, and services. Cost of living is higher but they also get paid higher.
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