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Old 11-22-2017, 10:04 PM
 
1,491 posts, read 606,291 times
Reputation: 3798

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We have a very basic difference in point of view. The way I look at it the CEO is stealing from the 10,000 employees. They earned him the bonus he gave himself. $6000 a year would give a person a new 4 dr leased Toyota Camry plus insurance every three years for the rest of their lives. That would probably change the life of a person driving and repairing a junker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
6K isn't going to change anyone's life.

Redistribution never works. You could steal every last dollar from every billionaire in the world (most of whom are not Americans, by the way), redistribute it to everyone, and it wouldn't be enough to buy a one-way ticket to the US so they could mooch off us.

Making rich people poor doesn't change the situation of poor people. It can't. And by the way, why would someone kill themselves at a grueling stressful job without the upside represented by that bonus? You really think you're going to get the same efforts from people even when you take away their incentives? Do you have any experience in business? Or with other people? Have you MET people?

Poor people are poor not because of cash flow, but because they lack human capital. You can give them little handouts stolen from other people, but its not going to change the fact they have a deficit of what other people value.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:07 PM
 
1,491 posts, read 606,291 times
Reputation: 3798
Individual rights are trampled and stagnation has set in in the U.S., so the wealth gap hasn't worked that well either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Give us just one example of this in which either individual rights were not trampled, or stagnation did not set in.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,433 posts, read 6,848,240 times
Reputation: 14506
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez View Post
We have a very basic difference in point of view. The way I look at it the CEO is stealing from the 10,000 employees. They earned him the bonus he gave himself. $6000 a year would give a person a new 4 dr leased Toyota Camry plus insurance every three years for the rest of their lives. That would probably change the life of a person driving and repairing a junker.
You obviously have no idea of the means by which, over the generations, the accumulated wealth of any successful enterprise ends up under benevolent management. Most of our pension funds, and foundations, not to mention institutions like colleges, hospitals, and other chariries manage endowments which generate additional funds for operation. When Buffet, Gates, Bezos and others pass from the scene (as did Jobs and generations of Rockefellers and DuPonts, etc.) a portion of their wealth passes to an ever-growing non-profit sector, which provides benefits for all of us.

They don't have much interest in your car payments, however. But I suppose you'ld be eager to steal and "redistribute" the fruits of their efforts as well.

The concept of equity (the intangible wealth of a successful enterprise) is central to the formation of the capital which fuels all human progress. Most socialist experiments demonstrate this in a particularly painful manner after they've eaten the seed corn -- just as you would like to.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-22-2017 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NYUSA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way.
6,777 posts, read 1,962,061 times
Reputation: 1651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeymourGore View Post
No matter what way you slice it, it seems as if the most ruthless, most greedy, most narcissistic people end up as the elite that ends up in power. Is there anything that can be done to eliminate, or at the very least, largely mitigate it? One idea I have is elimination of private property and limit on excess of personal property, and as capitalism needs culturalization to exists, so does communism, also horizontal democracy, more democracy in general where the people decides not a political elite distant from the people.

Capitalism is a system that doesn't simply harness but magnifies greed due to its structural requirements - the necessary eternal expansion of markets for the sake of unending capital accumulation held in the hands of those who own the means of production. If we want to ameliorate corrupting influences, it makes more sense to embrace a democratic socio-politico-economic system in which power is more widely distributed. This is socialism.

Many of the things we ascribe to "human nature" stem from material conditions, not from some intrinsic drive. We know that scarcity plays a role in fostering greed in humans. We know that because of our understanding of how many hunter-gatherer societies work, as well as early agricultural societies like the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. When needs are met, there is little inherent need for status and wealth accumulation. When things are scarce and need to be exchanged or claimed, hierarchies develop. Societies are based on mankind's attempts at harnessing production. Change the mode of production and you begin to change how society operates.
The following link contains a very interesting (& quite short) essay about the 'power of human stupidity' as it relates to some of the thought provoking questions & thoughtviews presented in your OP.

Its called The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity & was written over 30 years ago by the (imho brilliant) Carlo M. Cipolla, Professor Emeritus of Economic History at Berkeley.

I highly recommend 'giving it a shot' ~ even if just to savor Mr. Cipolla's unique writing style ~ tongue-in-cheek & sortof ironic, particularly when considering the subject matter. After all, economics is often referred to as the 'dismal science'. Guarantee it's anything but dismal & is, imho, as entertaining as it is informative & thought provoking. A few clips from:

Quote:
THE BASIC LAWS OF HUMAN STUPIDITY by Carlo M. Cipolla illustrations by James Donnelly

The first basic law of human stupidity asserts without ambiguity that: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.

...I firmly believe that stupidity is an indiscriminate privilege of all human groups and is uniformly distributed according to a constant proportion. This fact is scientifically expressed by the Second Basic Law which states that The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.

...THE THIRD (AND GOLDEN) BASIC LAW: The Third Basic Law assumes, although it does not state it explicitly, that human beings fall into four basic categories: the helpless, the intelligent, the bandit and the stupid. It will be easily recognized by the perspicacious reader that these four categories correspond to the four areas I, H, S, B, of the basic graph (see below).

...A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.

...This is clearly summarized in the Fourth Basic Law which states that: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.

... All this suggests some reflection on the performance of societies. According to the Second Basic Law, the fraction of stupid people is a constant which is not affected by time, space, race, class or any other socio- cultural or historical variable.

It would be a profound mistake to believe the number of stupid people in a declining society is greater than in a developing society. Both such societies are plagued by the same percentage of stupid people. The difference between the two societies is that in the society which performs poorly:

a) the stupid members of the society are allowed by the other members to become more active and take more actions;

b) there is a change in the composition of the non-stupid section with a relative decline of populations of areas I, H1 and B1 and a proportionate increase of populations H2 and B2.

...Whether one considers classical, or medieval, or modern or contemporary times one is impressed by the fact that any country moving uphill has its unavoidable fraction of stupid people. However the country moving uphill also has an unusually high fraction of intelligent people who manage to keep the fraction at bay and at the same time produce enough gains for themselves and the other members of the community to make progress a certainty. ...
http://advanced.jhu.edu/wp-content/u...-Stupidity.pdf
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Texas
23,888 posts, read 10,085,470 times
Reputation: 5342
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeymourGore View Post
No matter what way you slice it, it seems as if the most ruthless, most greedy, most narcissistic people end up as the elite that ends up in power. Is there anything that can be done to eliminate, or at the very least, largely mitigate it? One idea I have is elimination of private property and limit on excess of personal property, and as capitalism needs culturalization to exists, so does communism, also horizontal democracy, more democracy in general where the people decides not a political elite distant from the people.

Capitalism is a system that doesn't simply harness but magnifies greed due to its structural requirements - the necessary eternal expansion of markets for the sake of unending capital accumulation held in the hands of those who own the means of production. If we want to ameliorate corrupting influences, it makes more sense to embrace a democratic socio-politico-economic system in which power is more widely distributed. This is socialism.

Many of the things we ascribe to "human nature" stem from material conditions, not from some intrinsic drive. We know that scarcity plays a role in fostering greed in humans. We know that because of our understanding of how many hunter-gatherer societies work, as well as early agricultural societies like the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. When needs are met, there is little inherent need for status and wealth accumulation. When things are scarce and need to be exchanged or claimed, hierarchies develop. Societies are based on mankind's attempts at harnessing production. Change the mode of production and you begin to change how society operates.
So your solution is theft? You haven't thought this through.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Madison, WI
4,506 posts, read 1,441,559 times
Reputation: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Get money out of politics. Simple.
Good luck.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:49 AM
 
5,720 posts, read 1,747,545 times
Reputation: 4563
Hans-Hermann Hoppe explains why we get such terrible people in positions of power:

https://mises.org/blog/why-democracy-rewards-bad-people
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:22 AM
 
1,491 posts, read 606,291 times
Reputation: 3798
At 71 I don't think I need economics or history lessons from a brainwashed cheerleader for the wealthy class. Unless you are rich yourself, I guess you are hoping some of their money will rub off on you. Good luck with that. To the rich, the rest of us are all just dirt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
You obviously have no idea of the means by which, over the generations, the accumulated wealth of any successful enterprise ends up under benevolent management. Most of our pension funds, and foundations, not to mention institutions like colleges, hospitals, and other chariries manage endowments which generate additional funds for operation. When Buffet, Gates, Bezos and others pass from the scene (as did Jobs and generations of Rockefellers and DuPonts, etc.) a portion of their wealth passes to an ever-growing non-profit sector, which provides benefits for all of us.

They don't have much interest in your car payments, however. But I suppose you'ld be eager to steal and "redistribute" the fruits of their efforts as well.

The concept of equity (the intangible wealth of a successful enterprise) is central to the formation of the capital which fuels all human progress. Most socialist experiments demonstrate this in a particularly painful manner after they've eaten the seed corn -- just as you would like to.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,053 posts, read 8,119,616 times
Reputation: 4767
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
You mean the nearly hundreds of millions who were murdered by Russia, China, Cambodia, etc were experiencing "prosperity"?
Just red grease to lube the rails of the Commie Train!
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,053 posts, read 8,119,616 times
Reputation: 4767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
So your solution is theft? You haven't thought this through.
Of course it is and one of these years the people getting robbed the most will grow tired of it..............
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