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Old 11-25-2017, 05:42 PM
 
1,327 posts, read 261,544 times
Reputation: 1705

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I was fed up with both primary parties too! That's why I voted for Trump...he chose to take over the Republicans rather than run third party.

What is happening to him by the establishment on both sides is evidence of why most outsiders never have a chance.
His strongest weapon so far has been his ability to play the MSM for fools, knowing full well that the MSM IS the managing wing of the establishment.
It costs him nothing to post simple tweaks that get everyone all riled up and in the end they always seem to out themselves and find themselves neck deep in their own doo doo.

The reason he chose the RebublicanParty to crash is because outwardly it attracts mor Constitutionalists than the Democrats do....so there were more anti-establishment renegades thaty would jump aboard his train.


(FWIW...I meant to say tweaks instead of tweets...because that is exactly what they are!)
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,634 posts, read 4,420,745 times
Reputation: 4214
Duverger's Law posits that a plurality voting system (as America has) will favor two parties. A third party may exist (or emerge), riding current trends to virtually eliminate all but one of the other contenders, or be forced out of serious contention in short order.

Watch and enjoy the law of the jungle. Note this video does not say Republicans are wrong, Democrats are wrong, or any other combination-it just explains why America usually has two parties trading power back and forth.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:32 PM
 
5,721 posts, read 5,262,378 times
Reputation: 3603
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
Duverger's Law posits that a plurality voting system (as America has) will favor two parties. A third party may exist (or emerge), riding current trends to virtually eliminate all but one of the other contenders, or be forced out of serious contention in short order.

Watch and enjoy the law of the jungle. Note this video does not say Republicans are wrong, Democrats are wrong, or any other combination-it just explains why America usually has two parties trading power back and forth.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Right. Based on our system, voters are behaving completely rationally by having two main parties.

Other countries have more because they have different systems.

BTW, having multiple major parties is not necessarily going to get you a different end result. The recent German election was hardly a ringing endorsement of Angela Merkel and yet she may hang on to power if she can get a coalition together.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:39 PM
 
2,884 posts, read 708,823 times
Reputation: 1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by juppiter View Post
Right. Based on our system, voters are behaving completely rationally by having two main parties.

Other countries have more because they have different systems.

BTW, having multiple major parties is not necessarily going to get you a different end result. The recent German election was hardly a ringing endorsement of Angela Merkel and yet she may hang on to power if she can get a coalition together.
For me at least, saying I want to have 3rd party go somewhere is possibly to replace one or both parties in the current system. I think they both have outlived their usefulness.
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Old 11-25-2017, 07:15 PM
 
38,084 posts, read 19,080,299 times
Reputation: 12113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
The US is governed by a corrupt duopoly controlled by special interests in cahoots with the mainstream media, which acts as their auxiliary.
True but when we are given a different choice the media trashes them and people end up voting for the same old corrupt politicians in the duopoly.

2016 was different but the powers made sure Hillary beat Bernie, (ignoring what his supporters wanted), and they just laughed at Trump not considering him a threat against their chosen candidate. And when the American people didn't "give them who they wanted" they attack his supporters and use everything in their arsenal against Trump. It's too bad people who are buying it can't see the obvious.
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Old 11-25-2017, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
12,243 posts, read 8,179,735 times
Reputation: 8686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf_Norway View Post




Any ideas as to why things evolved so differently in the USA compared to Europe?



Because we're more crooked then anyone else in the world and we like to elect crooks for president.
We are our own worst enemy. America doesn't care about our country as a whole only about what they can get for themselves. Which is why we keep electing the Clintons and Obama's And of late our biggest embarrassment Trump. When you hear an American say I love my country this is why I voted for said person, they are full of poopy all they care about is themselves.


We're like Rome it's just a matter of time before we fall.
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Old 11-25-2017, 07:49 PM
 
5,775 posts, read 1,319,867 times
Reputation: 3001
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Without some sortof systemic changes to US campaign finance rules, laws, guidelines, etc. the prognosis is not good.

Status quo: 'seats' in government are sold to the highest bidders & as for as much as the market will bear.
The problem with all of this is the two parties in charge make the rules and they are not going to change the rules and make their parties vulnerable to a real 3rd party threat.
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Old 11-26-2017, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
8,805 posts, read 2,990,817 times
Reputation: 5256
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Yes - balancing the powers of the president with/against the powers of congress was one of their explicit goals. This is a feature, not a bug. They did not intend government to be controversy-free, or expect that everyone march to the same beat. What they wanted was to create a power structure with self-implementing internal brakes.

Someone above mentioned abolishing the electoral college. There are good arguments for doing that, and the problems of a president supported by only a minority of voters is one of them. There are good arguments for keeping the electoral college too, the founders were addressing a real problem when they invented it.

On balance, I support keeping the electoral college. But still, the electoral college does allow for two parties to dominate the political scene, and that's a real problem. I think there are several good ways to address it, but those have to be tackled by the states. States do control their electoral voters after all.

I've posted this several times before, and I'll post it again - National Popular Vote

I'm not sure this is the answer, but it does put the solution of the problem where I think it belongs - with the states.
Most systems have checks and balances, in the UK as already mentioned, the Prime Minister is the elected leader of the party and leads the Cabinet and Government, however he or she must answer to Parliament. Where Parliament loses faith in a Government, it can lead to a vote of no-confidence in the Government by Parliament and fresh elections which is what happened to the Labour Government in 1979.

It also should be noted that the armed forces and police swear allegiance to the Monarchy and Country rather than the Government, and the Judiciary is also seperate to the Government (Executive) and Parliament (Legislator). The Law Lords having been replaced by a UK Supreme Court.

The system in the US curtails the powers of the President through Congress, and a US President can find themselves just as ineffective at passing legislation as a British PM.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:40 AM
 
1,836 posts, read 989,399 times
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One of the reasons is there is no viable third party that appeals to enough voters. Another reason is the two ruling parties make state laws that make it very difficult for 3rd parties to get on the ballot (i.e., the law here in Ohio that many nicknamed The Re-elect John Kasich Law when he was running for re-election as Governor).

It will take a Herculean effort to get a viable third party on the ballot in all states, and to find enough qualified candidates to run. That is another issue, citizens have to be willing to step up and run, but many don't want the scrutiny or in some cases the disruption to their lives.

Every once in awhile I like to post FDR's letter to Congress dated April 29th, 1938 on curbing monopolies. Franklin D. Roosevelt: Message to Congress on Curbing Monopolies. The part I like to quote is his description of fascism:

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism—ownership of Government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."

The way I see things I absolutely believe we live under corporate fascism today in the country. Both the Democrats and Republicans do the bidding of corporations and the rich. Yes, even the Democrats. If that weren't the case they wouldn't have given us Cash for Clunkers that wiped out the used car market for the working poor; the ACA that health insurance companies loved because it meant citizens would be required to buy health insurance they couldn't afford; or supported amnesty for illegals that have taken work from millions of American workers in this country. No, they are just as bad, if not worse, than Republicans, and I hope Democrats reading this wake up to this fact.

We do need a new third party, a party that will be fair-minded and truly represent all classes of citizens. For decades Americans have been pitted against each other by our two ruling parties, and they do it so we feel we have to vote for one to keep the other out of power, as they both do the bidding of big business and the rich.

And someday if and when I have the money to start a new party I'll do my darnedest to do so. I have to wonder though, are most Americans so apathetic to care or join in any longer?
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NYUSA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way.
6,780 posts, read 1,964,948 times
Reputation: 1656
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwinkelman View Post
The problem with all of this is the two parties in charge make the rules and they are not going to change the rules and make their parties vulnerable to a real 3rd party threat.
If that is the problem, why not identify it as such? After all, from Aristotle onward, it's been an ongoing discussion that democratic processes will be impaired (or will not function) in environments of vast economic differences.

It's self-defeating for any community when the conditions necessary to its own existence are destroyed.

& self-perpetuating when not identified:

• Identify the problems. — “What’s the real questions we’re facing here?”
• Define the context. — “What are the facts & circumstances that frame this problem?”
• Enumerate choices. — “What are our most plausible three or four options?”
• Analyze options. — “What is our best course of action, all things considered?”
• List reasons explicitly. — “Let’s be clear: Why we are making this particular choice?”
• Self-correct. — “Okay, let’s look at it again. What did we miss?”

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioJB View Post
One of the reasons is there is no viable third party that appeals to enough voters. Another reason is the two ruling parties make state laws that make it very difficult for 3rd parties to get on the ballot (i.e., the law here in Ohio that many nicknamed The Re-elect John Kasich Law when he was running for re-election as Governor).

It will take a Herculean effort to get a viable third party on the ballot in all states, and to find enough qualified candidates to run. That is another issue, citizens have to be willing to step up and run, but many don't want the scrutiny or in some cases the disruption to their lives.

Every once in awhile I like to post FDR's letter to Congress dated April 29th, 1938 on curbing monopolies. Franklin D. Roosevelt: Message to Congress on Curbing Monopolies. The part I like to quote is his description of fascism:

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism—ownership of Government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."

The way I see things I absolutely believe we live under corporate fascism today in the country. Both the Democrats and Republicans do the bidding of corporations and the rich. Yes, even the Democrats. If that weren't the case they wouldn't have given us Cash for Clunkers that wiped out the used car market for the working poor; the ACA that health insurance companies loved because it meant citizens would be required to buy health insurance they couldn't afford; or supported amnesty for illegals that have taken work from millions of American workers in this country. No, they are just as bad, if not worse, than Republicans, and I hope Democrats reading this wake up to this fact.

We do need a new third party, a party that will be fair-minded and truly represent all classes of citizens. For decades Americans have been pitted against each other by our two ruling parties, and they do it so we feel we have to vote for one to keep the other out of power, as they both do the bidding of big business and the rich.

And someday if and when I have the money to start a new party I'll do my darnedest to do so. I have to wonder though, are most Americans so apathetic to care or join in any longer?
There are 535 Members of US Congress. When all of them, no matter the party, are strongly influenced by the smallest segment, democracy is "not safe". We the people have tolerated "the growth of private power". We are already "at that point".

Part of the 'context' or 'framework' enabling this condition is being conned into electing government representatives who espouse the ideology of 'government is the problem' & while blissfully ignoring the realities (& inherent ironies).

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy as they've proceeded to demonstrate.
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