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Old 11-22-2018, 12:40 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
8,479 posts, read 6,878,349 times
Reputation: 16974

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A questionable diatribe against against socialism, whatever that means, by going back hundreds of years to the Pilgrims. You have a group of people, already weakened by an arduous cross Atlantic journey who banded together to survive in a hostile environment. It’s as simple as that.
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:14 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,664,723 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumaois View Post
With so many left- and right-winged distortions of history, I honestly don't know what's true and exaggerated for some historical events. This is where .gov articles can help.
If you read you will figure out a lot of what went on.

But the basics are simple. Corporations were responsible for both Virginia and New England settlements - they expected to be paid with the Gold and/or Silver found. Many who were sent over were troublemakers, debtors and what the Brits considered dregs of society (Scots-Irish) - who became the first "slaves". Without the threat of hanging and stealing from the Indians, Jamestown would have never finally established itself. Same goes to a similar extent to the Pilgrims - after all, they owed a debt to the King and his 1% (Corporations and financiers). London is/was the "Wall Street" of the world.

What happened after that is 1,000 or more stories depending on what branch you take and whose eyes you are looking through.

Pretty simple. Most people were not masters of their destiny, but under the gun of one sort or another.
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:59 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
IU have just posted link aftewr link after link showing examples of tax evasion by the wealthy, interms of Non Domicile Residence, Offshore accounts and using offshore companies and subsidaries to hide profits.
European countries are that way. Ingvar Kamprad, the Swedish billionaire founder of IKEA paid zero taxes to Sweden for 40 years simply by living in Switzerland and registering IKEA in the Netherlands instead of in Sweden.

The US should follow suit, in addition to implementing a European-style 25% VAT tax that everyone pays, and flattening the income tax brackets so that the middle class, like in Scandinavian countries, is in the top tax bracket:

The Progressivity of US and Scandinavian Income Taxes - Source: OECD

Why can't you just get on board with the Euro-style regressive tax system? That's how they fund their generous government social programs. As I've already posted, the Europeans have figured this out and tax MUCH more regressively than does the US. It really is common sense; a much wider tax base generates much greater tax revenues.

How Other Developed Countries Tax and Spend

Read the analysis posted at the link, and be sure to understand what the scatter plot chart is telling us.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:14 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
The 'tax rate' means nothing when the wealthy and corporations use tax avoidance schemes and pay nothing.
If the wealthy "pay nothing," as you so foolishly assert , how is it that the top 1% earns 19.72% of the income, but pays 37.32% of the federal income tax, while...

Top 5-10% earns 11.37% of the income, and pays 11.24% of the federal income tax.
Top 10-25% earns 21.86% of the income, and pays 16.50% of the federal income tax.
(Source: IRS Statistics of Income, Individual Income Rates and Tax Shares, most recently revised in 2018)

Why not just have everyone pay the same share of the federal income tax as they earn in income as the latter 2 income groups do?

And FWIW, most tax breaks and credits are phased out a higher income levels. It's actually the middle class and lower who are more likely to reduce their federal income tax liability to zero. 45% of all 1040 filers pay no federal income tax whatsoever. 27% of all 1040 filers pay no federal income tax AND no payroll taxes. How is that possible? Refundable tax credits (available only to the middle class and low-income) offset and sometimes even exceed the value of any federal taxes paid. If you don't understand that, consult a CPA.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:36 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Here's another interesting fact... About 80% of American taxpayers pay more in payroll taxes than in federal income tax. That means their payroll tax rate of 7.65% is higher than their effective federal income tax rate. 80%. If you wonder why the US lacks the funding for Euro-style generous social program benefits, THAT'S why. Too many Americans are paying WAY too little in federal taxes, unlike their Euro peers who pay 20-25% VAT taxes with their middle class in the top income tax brackets.

Here's a comparative chart on what their effective national tax rates are for a middle income earner, for those who are interested. Page 9:

http://www.institutmolinari.org/IMG/...en-eu-2017.pdf

American middle income workers won't accept being taxed at those rates, so we can't have national health care, etc.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,838 posts, read 26,236,305 times
Reputation: 34038
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
If the wealthy "pay nothing," as you so foolishly assert , how is it that the top 1% earns 19.72% of the income, but pays 37.32% of the federal income tax, while...

Top 5-10% earns 11.37% of the income, and pays 11.24% of the federal income tax.
Top 10-25% earns 21.86% of the income, and pays 16.50% of the federal income tax.
(Source: IRS Statistics of Income, Individual Income Rates and Tax Shares, most recently revised in 2018)

Why not just have everyone pay the same share of the federal income tax as they earn in income as the latter 2 income groups do?

And FWIW, most tax breaks and credits are phased out a higher income levels. It's actually the middle class and lower who are more likely to reduce their federal income tax liability to zero. 45% of all 1040 filers pay no federal income tax whatsoever. 27% of all 1040 filers pay no federal income tax AND no payroll taxes. How is that possible? Refundable tax credits (available only to the middle class and low-income) offset and sometimes even exceed the value of any federal taxes paid. If you don't understand that, consult a CPA.
Wrong but I'm not going to waste much time on this. Here are 18 profitable companies that paid no federal income tax between 2008 and 2016, it will be interesting to see how many make this list in 2019.

Pepco Holdings
PG&E Corp.
Wisconsin Energy
NiSource
International Paper
FirstEnergy
Priceline.com
Amos Energy
General Electric
American Electric Power
Ryder System
Duke Energy
NextEra Energy
Xcel Energy
Ameren
CMS Energy
Sempra Energy
Eversource Energy
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meet-th...-over-8-years/

There's quite a bit of difference between those companies not paying income tax and a poor family making $20,000 or $30,000 a year.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:59 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Wrong but I'm not going to waste much time on this. Here are 18 profitable companies that paid no federal income tax between 2008 and 2016, it will be interesting to see how many make this list in 2019.
Corporations pay no corporate tax when they have zero taxable profit. Kind of like how people pay no federal income tax when they have zero taxable income. Get it?

Going after corporations to pay taxes is entirely misguided, anyway. Why? The end user/consumer always pays. Taxes are included as overhead in products/services pricing formulas.
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Old 11-23-2018, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,838 posts, read 26,236,305 times
Reputation: 34038
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Corporations pay no corporate tax when they have zero taxable profit. Kind of like how people pay no federal income tax when they have zero taxable income. Get it?

Going after corporations to pay taxes is entirely misguided, anyway. Why? The end user/consumer always pays. Taxes are included as overhead in products/services pricing formulas.
You ignore what I posted and immediately fall back to your talking points. It's silly to even entertain the idea of having a discussion with you.
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Old 11-23-2018, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,480 posts, read 11,273,359 times
Reputation: 8996
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristramShandy View Post
Translation: I can't believe that people don't just believe the 1950s version of Thanksgiving and shut the hell up.
I can't believe you think the pilgrims even knew what caused small pox let alone were able to purposefully make conveyances for the disease to kill people.
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Old 11-23-2018, 09:53 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,069 posts, read 10,726,642 times
Reputation: 31427
OP offers a ridiculous right wing theory of the near failure of the Plymouth settlement. These people were a society in shock for the first couple years. They already fled religious persecution to a temporary refuge in Holland. The miserable voyage toward the mouth of the Hudson River ended off course in Massachusetts with people dying along the way. Their sister ship, the Speedwell, was unable to make the voyage, reducing the size of the company and their provisions. They held off shore at Cape Cod for a month and produced the Mayflower Compact to establish a basic rule of law and organization. There were those in the group that had no interest in submitting to authority in the absence of some formal compact. They also had no official land grant governing the settlement at the time. They finally arrived at 'Plymouth Rock' in mid December...a horrible time to establish a settlement. They were barely ashore and people started dying. It took almost two months to build the first house. Over thirty settlers died by March and only 47 of the original company of 102 were living by the end of March. Only a handful were healthy enough to do any work. These people were woefully unprepared for The task at hand and the settlement was spiralling towards extinction. The situation stabilized briefly with the aid of the Indians (1621) but a second ship arrived with more settlers and few provisions the next November. What the OP labels as evil socialism was a last ditch effort to keep people alive in the face of sickness and starvation. Other ships arrived in subsequent years but it took took about nine years to reach 300 settlers.
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