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Old 11-24-2017, 11:40 AM
 
Location: San Diego
4,410 posts, read 1,089,161 times
Reputation: 3073

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
You guys believe the worst in people,
Nope. We don't believe that people are bad. We believe that many people are capable of doing bad things... and that, when presented with enough temptation, some will. A system that presents them with that temptation without end, and provides little incentive for the hard work required to do good, is a system that will inevitably destroy itself. Such a system is not only "bad", it is evil.

Quote:
while we believe that most are good people.
It is characteristic that you ignore the suffering and death that took place for the first two years of the Plimoth colony, right in front of your face, and then mouth the platitudes like "we believe most are good people".

The problem is not that "most people are good". It is whether the system they are in, incentivizes the hard work necessary for survival and prosperity, while punishing (however mildly) those who decide not to do that hard work.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
3,901 posts, read 1,539,698 times
Reputation: 2987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyster View Post
Tell that to Bernie Sanders and his millions of supporters.

Tell it to Obama, who was mentored in his youth by Frank Marshall Davis... a card carrying member of The Communist Party USA.
Sanders is a moderate labor socialist who would not be out of place in a European social democracy. Obama is center right politician who caters to wall street specifically insurance companies. There is no active left wing in the US at all the right wing controls everything.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:54 AM
 
10,004 posts, read 7,803,794 times
Reputation: 6295
They were very late leaving England due to trouble with the ship.

IDK if they replenished all the used up provisions before they finally left.

They had to live on the ship until spring.

And the orphaned child labor had not yet arrived to plant the crops.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
15,831 posts, read 5,608,636 times
Reputation: 4649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
Nope. We don't believe that people are bad. We believe that many people are capable of doing bad things... and that, when presented with enough temptation, some will. A system that presents them with that temptation without end, and provides little incentive for the hard work required to do good, is a system that will inevitably destroy itself. Such a system is not only "bad", it is evil.


It is characteristic that you ignore the suffering and death that took place for the first two years of the Plimoth colony, right in front of your face, and then mouth the platitudes like "we believe most are good people".

The problem is not that "most people are good". It is whether the system they are in, incentivizes the hard work necessary for survival and prosperity, while punishing (however mildly) those who decide not to do that hard work.
Way to cherry pick my post
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Florida
20,100 posts, read 8,483,852 times
Reputation: 16432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
When the Pilgrims first landed in America, their governor William Bradford writes that they set up an economic system very similar to socialism, where everything they produced went into a common pools, and each person was allowed to take only what he needed to survive. Inevitably, some produced little, and even stole from others to get enough to eat. Other complained that they were being required to produce for the ones that didn't and their families. The result was that little was produced, and many starved.

After a few years of that, Gov. Bradford abolished their socialistic system. He gave each family their own land, and each was allowed to keep whatever they produced. And starvation quickly stopped, with far more produced that in past years.

Today we still have a number of people who are ignorant of the results of their desired socialistic systems, and who are determined to force all of us to repeat them.

https://mises.org/library/great-thanksgiving-hoax-1
Did they have universal healthcare?
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:23 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
5,329 posts, read 3,049,928 times
Reputation: 9851
There were 130 people crammed on the disgusting, puny boat. They ate most of their food. Many were already sick or dying. They stayed on the boat for almost six weeks before settling on Plymouth in late December. Carver was the Governor when about half the people died. They should have probably all died but they had the good sense to agree to the Mayflower Compact as a means of survival. Nobody was thinking about socialism at the time.

"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
24,193 posts, read 10,244,450 times
Reputation: 5410
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Here's a response that will be over your head:

Pretty much every first-world nation on earth is not 100% capitalistic or socialistic; effective societies exist as a mixture of the two across various economic and social aspects. That's why no one is suggesting we collectivize all the farms, but we can still productively discuss maintaining some social safety net or a healthcare system that is actually cost-effective and covers everyone. When conservatives start talking about how everything free market is always good in every circumstance and socialistic principles are always bad in every circumstance...that's the hysterical ranting.
Your response didn't address the fact that people are human and enough will not work when things are handed to them. Which is what happened.

Go ahead and show proof of a time where the free market has failed. I'd really like to see what you come up with.
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
24,193 posts, read 10,244,450 times
Reputation: 5410
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
It is a good thing, because you are so blinded by your ideology that you think that pure laissez-faire capitalism is 100% upside, 0% downside.

In the real world, it has a huge downside. You may think that "non-producers" not getting jack squat is a "good thing that should motivate everyone to produce; or that workers who are more productive should get millions of times more than workers whose jobs aren't as productive; but not too many agree with you. There has to be some balance, as at the end of the day, we are all humans, and we don't want people dropping like flies around us
Like I said, you make things up. you no proof, none. Laissez-faire capitalism has a huge downside? Please give us an example of that. I'd really like to see you once, at least once, back up what you are saying.

The best part about your absurd post is this "more productive should get millions of times more than workers whose jobs aren't as productive" and "we don't want people dropping like flies around us" . Two things you've made up and no proof to back it up. Stop with the histrionics.

Last edited by Loveshiscountry; 11-24-2017 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
24,193 posts, read 10,244,450 times
Reputation: 5410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64 View Post
Okay, I will take the bait.



In returning to the subject, you have added nothing new, you have merely quite literally re-posted your initial comments.



I read the article, and, while I found it interesting, I couldn't help but notice that it quite conveniently neglected to mention that half of them died that first winter. This is hardly surprising, as they arrived in November (not noted as an opportune time for planting crops), after a long journey, during which their supplies dwindled to dangerously low levels. In addition, many of the deaths have been attributed to disease and, as they had no shelter, they spent the winter months on a ship which was never built as a passenger vessel in the first place, exposure to cold and damp, until, in the spring, they could begin building dwellings on land. Add to that the fact that New England was wilderness, and that it's highly unlikely any of them were skilled outdoorsmen, and it is not surprising that so many died. The fact is that other groups of early colonists fared little better, and some did much, much worse.

I am not making an argument either for or against socialism, but I do think that the article to which you linked is a very skewed argument, clearly written by someone with an agenda. These people faced many adversities, and to claim that their economic system is the primary reason for their initial failure to thrive seems absurd. As for the words of William Bradford, you can read them in their entirety on the link below, but be warned: the text is long, and it is presented as written - in the English of the day, which is quite different from what we are familiar with, both in usage and spelling - so it may be slow going.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24950...50-h.htm#a1623

Is this reply sufficiently sensible?
Of course not. Here's your statement which you neglected to expand on. " I couldn't help but notice that it quite conveniently neglected to mention that half of them died that first winter." And? So? What happened to the rest? Why did they fail?

The author doesn't have an agenda but you do. Because you didn't agree with the OP and have done nothing, not one reasonable explanation in your post to disprove that OP.
Here's you basis. "many died that first year." Oh and for some reason you think someone has to be a skilled outdoorsman to plant crops and build shelter. Really? You actually think that? Like a couple of hunters couldn't feed a group of ~10 people?
And the people who jumped on board that ship knew what they would be facing. Knowing what the hard ships would be AND what needed to be done. The problem was they left it to the other guy.

Last edited by Loveshiscountry; 11-24-2017 at 01:00 PM..
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Texas
24,193 posts, read 10,244,450 times
Reputation: 5410
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Nope, this is why conservatives and liberals will never get along or agree on anything, because we have different world views that are contradictory to each other.

You guys believe the worst in people, while we believe that most are good people.

Let's just partition the country and be done with it; I hate having to share government with people like yourself, and I'm sure you feel the same about people like myself
It's not liberals vs conservatives. It's progressives vs conservatives. Progressives polices (big government) always fail while there is some in liberalism.

The more accurate statement - I hate having people like you stealing my money for your causes to give to an inefficient government.
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