U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-01-2017, 04:16 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,648 posts, read 9,576,530 times
Reputation: 9691

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey View Post
So go live in Western Mongolia or Northern Afghanistan and have all of your dreams come true. They seem like nice places.
I see you statists are off Somalia.

Probably because the State Department confirmed civilian deaths from their drone strikes near Mogadishu this past month.

Uncle Sam is like herpes. He never goes away. Always there lurking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-01-2017, 04:19 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,648 posts, read 9,576,530 times
Reputation: 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
A modern society will NEVER operate the way you want. The masses will never embrace anarcho-capitalism
Since we don't believe in holding a gun to our neighbor's head for compliance like you do...it will be an uphill climb. Agree there.

But us anarchists/voluntaryists are a hopeful bunch.

Hope was one of the things the government forgot to take away from us when we spilled out of a vagina and agreed to the social contract.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 04:37 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,936 posts, read 22,206,840 times
Reputation: 9020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevroqs View Post
You want to think private property is theft? Go ahead and let random strangers live at your house. You'll get sick of them draining your electricity, wasting your water and eating all of your food.
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people nave enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.” Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality (1754)

I would say a strong argument can be put forth that the products of human labor and ingenuity: electricity, something you build or invent, your personal water supply, food you have for yourself, etc., is entirely different than the land itself which pre-dated our own individual existence. There was a bit of recognition of this fact codified into the laws of some of the early colonies or states. the right to enter "unenclosed lands" is protected by the Constitution in Vermont, for instance. You can hike, fish, hunt, etc. on these "unenclosed" lands (today that would mean unposted) but there's a line drawn at taking the fruit from a commercial/domestic orchard or a farmer's crop whereas you can't really get in trouble for taking a wild raspberry or other wild fruit or wild game unless told to leave.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 04:55 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,648 posts, read 9,576,530 times
Reputation: 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people nave enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody. Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality (1754)

I would say a strong argument can be put forth that the products of human labor and ingenuity: electricity, something you build or invent, your personal water supply, food you have for yourself, etc., is entirely different than the land itself which pre-dated our own individual existence. There was a bit of recognition of this fact codified into the laws of some of the early colonies or states. the right to enter "unenclosed lands" is protected by the Constitution in Vermont, for instance. You can hike, fish, hunt, etc. on these "unenclosed" lands (today that would mean unposted) but there's a line drawn at taking the fruit from a commercial/domestic orchard or a farmer's crop whereas you can't really get in trouble for taking a wild raspberry or other wild fruit or wild game unless told to leave.
Vermont is fictional. So is its constitution.

And this sums up my thoughts on Rousseau...

https://i.redd.it/7kh0x79nnliz.png
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,576 posts, read 16,721,867 times
Reputation: 26131
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenSJC View Post
At least, you can make a better argument that private property is theft (as opposed to personal property - the two are NOT synonymous) than you can regarding taxation as theft.

Taxation exists in a legal framework, so the question of whether taxation in and of itself is theft is a purely moral one, not a legal one. Thus, if you're going to make the moral argument that taxation is theft, you're going to have to say that private property rights - the right to acquire private property, that is - are a moral entitlement, or in other words, a natural right. And if that's what you believe to be the case....most cultures around the world, especially historically, might want to have a word with you about that.

There is no "State of Nature" of human morality that justifies private property rights or any other economic regime. There are only legal, political, cultural, and social conventions and arrangements that have justified the historical fact of a very small number of individuals and their legal fictions (corporations) taking by force the land, natural resources, and human labor of the world.

No, I'm not calling for Communism or Marxism or anything like that. I'm just calling for the "taxation is theft" crowd to follow their own arguments to their moral conclusions, since stating "taxation is theft" is necessarily a moral claim, and one that is seemingly non-negotiable. So go ahead - follow your moral compass on this one. You just might be surprised.
Taxation is theft. Before the ratification of the 16th Amendment, before welfare programs, Social Security, Medicare, and all other forms of government overbloat, the government used tariffs. Your everyday citizen did not get taxed. Taking the fruits of labor from one, against their will, to give to another who does not yield their own fruits, is theft.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 05:12 PM
 
Location: The United States of America
2,522 posts, read 984,469 times
Reputation: 1561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
Taxation is theft. Before the ratification of the 16th Amendment, before welfare programs, Social Security, Medicare, and all other forms of government overbloat, the government used tariffs. Your everyday citizen did not get taxed. Taking the fruits of labor from one, against their will, to give to another who does not yield their own fruits, is theft.
So I guess theft is now constitutional.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,143 posts, read 4,135,992 times
Reputation: 4721
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
You realize that you are advocating for anarchy in a nutshell, don't you. You basically don't believe in authority whatsoever. Well, chomp on this. Without government, there would be no capitalism. Because you can rest assured that the have nots would rob and attack the haves without authority around to stop them. Private property couldn't be defended except vigilante style. Is that what you really want?
I'm going to ask what appears to be a tangential question, but isn't (and I suspect my fellow an caps may suspect what's coming next).

Are you an atheist?
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules Infractions & Deletions Who's the moderator? FAQ What is a "Personal Attack" What is "Trolling" Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
4,786 posts, read 1,618,353 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I'm going to ask what appears to be a tangential question, but isn't (and I suspect my fellow an caps may suspect what's coming next).

Are you an atheist?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,690 posts, read 6,742,102 times
Reputation: 5719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I'm going to ask what appears to be a tangential question, but isn't (and I suspect my fellow an caps may suspect what's coming next).

Are you an atheist?
Yeah, I'm an athiest, but what does that have to do with the topic?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2017, 08:36 PM
 
4,986 posts, read 2,656,387 times
Reputation: 2738
No Trump. No Wall. No USA at all.

That chant sums up this threads topic.

Private property gave the three ships that landed on black people ( love that revision of history )

Those three ships werent slave ships. But never let facts get in the way of a good emotional Im black you enslaved us rant.

Back to No Trump. No wall. No USA at all.

This is where we live.

This is the line you have drawn.

Trump is America.

The wall is America.

My home is America.

A grave mistake.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:00 PM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top