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Way to go Brigitte, you may not win any prizes with the sisterhood, but you sure justified the fact that I, and a whole slew of guys I was at school with, would have walked barefoot over broken glass to bestow a kiss on the back of your hand, (for starters).
Not disagreeing with you here, but the problem is the borderline between flirting and harassment is very very murky, and there's no common agreement on what divides them, thus the danger in elevating trivial offenses or awkward interactions into harassment that can ruin a career. If a manager in a workplace or a producer like Weinstein demands sexual favors in return for promotion or holding a job, yes absolutely that's harassment and should be punished. But the problem is now, many people say that flirting itself can be harassment even if it doesn't involve a power imbalance. There are some polls out showing that a big percentage of young Americans view simply winking, complementing on clothes or just looking at someone a certain way, or commenting among friends can be harassment. That's verging on paralyzing madness. And it goes both ways. In places I've worked at in the past, I've seen women talk very raunchy about the new guy in the office or the contractor, even to his face, should he then go sue the women for harassment and get them fired?
Again this just goes back to the way the French like Deneuve look at this. The French, and basically the rest of the world, are just baffled by all this extreme ideologic warfare in the US. They're practical, and they say, correclty, that people are basically sexual, and we can't just shun this part of ourselves. So rather than obsess over harassment and pushing people out of careers for even minor incidents, the French just have customs that welcome sexual attention or make it clear that it's unwelcome, and move ont here, without all the legal and political craziness that's infecting the US, Britain and Canada these days.
I'm not from France (at least not for 400 years ) but I find when debating these issues Americans and Anglo-Canadians often get frustrated with me because of what you just described. I often get very aggressive questioning of the "which side are you on, anyway?" variety.
There's probably something to that. I've noticed in my trips to France that even today, with France's emphasis on public secularism, in private and in culture the Catholic influence is still very strong. In fact France has been having one of the strongest Catholic revivals in Europe, a lot of before struggling churches are making a strong comeback and attendance is way up. Despite the attention given to the Muslim population the more reliable polling shows it's actually around maybe 4% there tops, and if anything is falling instead of rising as both a lot of the North African population converts to Catholicism themselves, or more and more just leave France because the culture and policies, in ways subtle and obvious are very unfriendly and incompatible with Islam. The Catholic population of France is close to 91% and rising, which is amazing to me given that France historically has had a strong Protestant Huguenot presence esp up in the north of the country that's stayed strong despite the history of persecution.
To me it's one of the things to marvel at if you're an American in France, the way the French can balance things we couldn't think of doing in the US. There's no conflict in their minds with being modern and sexy, but then very piously Catholic when Sunday comes along. A Canadian associate of mine from Toronto is now engaged to a young French woman, and throughout the week she's sweet, flirtatious and openly sexy even with other men, even strolling around in a bikini sometimes outside their apartment in Marseille. My associate rolls his eyes sometimes but eventually just laughs, "she's just a French girl being French" he always says. And then on Sunday, both of them go to Mass, he was originally Protestant or agnostic in Toronto but now considers himself very Catholic, and they take their worship and the lessons given to them at the church very seriously. I just can't imagine this in the US, here we'd say that if someone's religous, esp. Catholic and going to Mass and praying, that they could never act the way she does. But the French don't see a contradiction at all. Just a different way of thinking over there.
Another excellent post.
Life is not black or white. It's mostly grey. (People also get frustrated with me when I say that.)
I've always found the French have a blunt frankness about human nature. It's a bit jarring to anglosphere types I think, who are more used to sweeping the messier stuff under the carpet or trying to suppress it.
This is not necessarily meant as enthusiastic applause for Catherine Deneuve's opinions, but coming from a place that's kind of sandwiched in-between the two views of things, I totally get where this is coming from.
I agree. Yes, the French have a blunt frankness about them. That was part of what I have been trying to convey in my posts. They don't have a metoo movement as we know it in the US, because they simply don't need one. French women are very strong and opinionated, and they don't apologize for that to anyone. They don't have to, as they would in the US.
All the posters here fawning over them do so only because they look for any way possible to denounce metoo and the left in general. If these French actresses had publicly supported their American sisters, you can bet these same posters would be shouting that Deneuve and the others are "old hags" who should shut their mouths. Again, keep in mind that these French actresses likely scoff at the mere idea of living and working permanently in the US. They'd probably never even consider it. I wonder why.
Not that I'm a true believer in metoo. As with most things political in the US, left AND right, it's reflexively taken to extremes. There is no happy medium, no moderation, but much hypocrisy amidst the hostility.
I'm not from France (at least not for 400 years ) but I find when debating these issues Americans and Anglo-Canadians often get frustrated with me because of what you just described. I often get very aggressive questioning of the "which side are you on, anyway?" variety.
Yeah me too, like one of those things anthropologists talk about when pointing out assumptions of a culture so deeply based they're rarely stated. It's like part of American and Anglo-Canadian culture is the assumption is that people in different groups are supposed to constantly be at each others' throats, all the time, and constantly forming new groups to start new conflicts. Including the ridiculous idea of men and women in conflict, which the French and every other culture find laughable as this sort of conflict would cause a whole society's fertility to plunge and the culture to perish. Other cultures just question the idea that we need to be forming battle lines all the time and engaging in culture wars, that's another thing that's so different and refreshing about France and other places. And then when someone just suggests that, you know, men and women like to hook up for perfectly biological reasons, and there's no reason we should be in conflict-- it's like the US/Anglo-Canadian world view has no way of making sense of a cultural assumption that's basic to practically every other culture on earth. Weird. I'm pretty sure a history minded anthropologist could put together a pretty good thesis studying that alone.
Last edited by Corascant; 01-22-2018 at 01:17 PM..
I still cannot imagine Halle Berry, Kim Kardashian, or Rihanna joining the #MeToo crowd.
I mean like....Really?...Seriously?
Kim's rise to prominence came through a sex tape she "leaked" so it'd be the ultimate hypocrisy for her to take on the banner. Sexual exploitation, of herself, is how she made it big.
The jury will note that post #4 was the first instance of personal attack on CD and commencement of the predicted smear campaign.
C'est dommage...
The jury disagrees.
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) but I find when debating these issues Americans and Anglo-Canadians often get frustrated with me because of what you just described. I often get very aggressive questioning of the "which side are you on, anyway?" variety.
