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Old 02-18-2018, 06:47 AM
Status: "serving a suspended sentence for not being a right winger" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Columbia, SC
7,331 posts, read 4,418,822 times
Reputation: 8825

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You folks saying mental illness caused this are ignoring what most mental health experts are saying. It's easy to point the finger at mental illness and say that one thing caused him to do this. It ignores a lot of other things. It ignores the fact that mental illness occurs all over the world, but mass killings, although they do occur elsewhere, is mostly an American epidemic.

It ignores the fact that most mentally ill people never become violent. People like Cruz and Paddock beg to be looked into deeper if we really care about ending mass killings. Violent people commit violent crimes. Mentally ill people are very rarely violent.

Consider this from someone smarter than I am who studies this kind of thing as to why you folks are so willing to point the finger at the mentally ill --

Quote:
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Latin for “after it, therefore because of it.” This is the assumption that because a relationship appears to exist between two variables, the former caused the latter. In this case, mental illness is seen to be the cause of gun violence. Because many who commit mass shootings display signs of some mental illness, it is believed that they must have become violent because of their mental illness. This ignores the fact that people with mental illness are actually less violent than the general population, making mental illness an insufficient explanation for their acts.

Fallacy of the single cause

The physical world tends to work in a pretty straightforward manner; we push the door, it closes. When it comes to human beings, matters tend to be much more complicated, but we still apply the laws of physics we’ve observed to human acts. The shooter had a mental illness, he become violent, end of story. One need not dive into the deep facts of a shooter’s biography to find that things are often much more complicated. To take the example of the Parkland shooter, he was adopted, his adoptive mother had died recently, and he had exhibited a host of troubling behaviors for many years. None of the facts are sufficient to explain why he did what he did; plenty of people are adopted or lose their mothers without becoming violent. Things are often much more complicated than the fallacy of the single cause would suggest.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ch-answers#_=_
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
51,770 posts, read 29,841,189 times
Reputation: 90827
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
So, you put owning an assault weapon in the same category as having the right to free speech ? Therein lies the problem. Words do not kill, guns do, some more efficiently than others.

You can try to defend your position any way you want, but the question no one can answer is "Why do you, a normal citizen, need a gun that spits out hundreds of rounds at a clip?" Can't use it for hunting, and if you can't hit a target with one bullet you shouldn't own a gun. There is NO LOGICAL reason for anyone, outside of military or LE to possess one of these very dangerous instruments of death......and that is all that they are.
There again you're pointing to inanimate objects as the culprits, rather than the individuals who do the killing. And sometimes words do incite others to kill. Remember September 11th, 2001?
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:48 AM
 
78,071 posts, read 33,277,428 times
Reputation: 15597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
Try to stay with us here. we're all talking about this little creep down in Florida who used a gun to kill people. Somehow Las Vegas came up again. That guy used a gun, too.

I would guess McVeigh used his method because he knew he could make a bomb from the materials he had. Most people can't make bombs or get those materials in bulk.
Nearly anyone can. Our moderator even explained how to go about it. Most of the mass killers are proficient on the internet even if they are not with life. It's very easy to read how to make a large bang on the internet.

Quote:
McVeigh was also a terrorist whereas Paddock and Cruz were not. And I know some disagree that they weren't terrorists, too. I used to think in those terms, but most people in law enforcement do not consider mass shootings to be terrorism.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything or even the logic.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:48 AM
 
4,318 posts, read 2,244,430 times
Reputation: 5569
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
You don't get to change the argument and when I don't go along, tell me to shut up. No matter what gun laws China had it didn't stop people from killing.

When places like Chicago had tougher fun laws, it did not stop people from killing.

The only answer is in addressing the reasons why people kill.
They stopped crazy people from killing MORE people - that is beyond a doubt.

So Chicago or DC or NY Gun laws are supposed to be comparable to an authoritarian country with severe penalties for breaking them ? I can go to VA or New Jersey or Michigan and buy a gun and drive back into the city - your comparison is laughable.


Australia, a country very similar to the US, outlawed assault weapons after a mass shooting there - now an assault weapon costs 25X what it used to cost and guess how many mass shooting have happened there ? Any legit studies show strong correlations between violent crime and the availability of firearms.

So sure address the reasons - and the means.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:53 AM
 
Location: USA
16,884 posts, read 8,672,118 times
Reputation: 12720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacanegro View Post
Australia, a country very similar to the US, outlawed assault weapons after a mass shooting there - now an assault weapon costs 25X what it used to cost and guess how many mass shooting have happened there ? Any legit studies show strong correlations between violent crime and the availability of firearms.

So sure address the reasons - and the means.
Australia is NOT a country very similar to the U.S. Their population is 24.6 million, and the U.S. is 330 million. Australia also does not have a plethora of large cities with inner city, black, on black gang violence that drives up murderers using a gun stats. You correlation is totally wrong. If you remove suicides, and gang violence stats our violent crime rate is in line with other countries, and possibly lower.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:57 AM
 
33,931 posts, read 18,453,438 times
Reputation: 7489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Take a look at your own posts. You certainly have ZERO moral high ground to stand on here.
So, I should not "hit" back when hit first....liberal/leftist logic....
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:58 AM
 
78,071 posts, read 33,277,428 times
Reputation: 15597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacanegro View Post
They stopped crazy people from killing MORE people - that is beyond a doubt.
Not true.

Quote:
So Chicago or DC or NY Gun laws are supposed to be comparable to an authoritarian country with severe penalties for breaking them ? I can go to VA or New Jersey or Michigan and buy a gun and drive back into the city - your comparison is laughable.


Australia, a country very similar to the US, outlawed assault weapons after a mass shooting there - now an assault weapon costs 25X what it used to cost and guess how many mass shooting have happened there ? Any legit studies show strong correlations between violent crime and the availability of firearms.

So sure address the reasons - and the means.
People pick countries and try to make some sort of comparison when the facts are, even before the creation of new laws these countries were less violent.

Switzerland has a very high rate of gun ownership and for whatever reason are not killing each other like here. I have my theories as to why.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:59 AM
 
78,071 posts, read 33,277,428 times
Reputation: 15597
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucksnee View Post
So, I should not "hit" back when hit first....liberal/leftist logic....
The "right" seems to think this way where it comes to war. That we should be able to invade just anyone we want and not expect them to retaliate.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:05 AM
 
33,931 posts, read 18,453,438 times
Reputation: 7489
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
The "right" seems to think this way where it comes to war. That we should be able to invade just anyone we want and not expect them to retaliate.

Seems the "left" also voted to start invadeing and retaliate.....yes?
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:06 AM
 
Location: USA
16,884 posts, read 8,672,118 times
Reputation: 12720
The bottom line is that violent crime has been going down for decades, including violent criminals using guns in crime. A lot of this can be possibly be linked to the growing number of states that allow legal concealed carry, and legal gun ownership. Yes it is a deterrent. When these horrible, very visible, and emotional attack occur it makes the uninformed, and those ignorant of reality have a knee jerk, purely emotional reaction to the law abiding owning guns.

Address the ROUTE CAUSE of the problem, not the law abiding gun owner. Remove schools from being a GUN FREE ZONE. Did Cruz abide by that law?
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