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I have news for you. That crew is overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly white. Many of them even live in segregated neighborhoods which are immune from fair housing enforcement because the big money in the Democratic Party lives there, and thus if anti-discrimination laws were enforced someone would be out of a job fast.
Oh I know they are overwhelmingly white non-Jewish and Jewish, privileged and the world's biggest hypocrites.
Most American Jews (myself included) are fiscally conservative, and socially progressive. I will try (sincerely) to try and reign in my disdain for the current admin, and stick to what I consider facts.
Facts, as I see them, are that neither party is fiscally conservative. One claims to be, and (IMO) is more fiscally wreckless than the other, who seems to be labeled as 'tax and spend', but objectively has a better record in terms of balancing budgets or reducing deficits. That is based on objective data.
Anyway, the point above is that NEITHER party has a leg to stand on when it comes to fiscal conservatism, so that leaves them with social issues.
American Jews are generally much more reform than their Israelly counterparts. Of course there are exceptions, it's a generalization, which I typically don't like. But especially outside of NYC and other areas with larger, older Jewish commuities (eg: Orthodox Jews), today's modern American Jews are more accepting of others. We are not against marrying out of the religion, we are accepting of people's personal lifestyle choices, and we don't condemn other religions. Most Jewish congregations have very active outreach programs, not only into Christianity, but also other religions such as Islam, Hinduism, etc. To point, we as Jews have been on the recieving end of scapegoating, stereotyping, and fascist abuse that nearly led to our extinction. Not just the Holocaust, but much of our history. As a young Jew, I was heavily exposed to these tragedies, and we were indoctrinated with "never forget" and "never again" long before 9/11 made those statements popular in mainstream America.
Our parents always went out of their way to show us the wrongs of prejudice of any kind. We were always made aware of the plight of Blacks in America, as we could partially relate. (I always remember my parents telling me to take our history, and then imagine if our skin color was an obvious indicator of who we were. We could never hide.)
Where does that leave us?
American Jews are "left leaning" because it better reflects what we think is right, based on our very unique experience in the world. If you accept that there is no fiscal conservatism in American politics, all you have left is social issues, and Jews are for inclusion, equality, and judging people by their character, not their label.
If you think about all those things, it should be pretty obvious why we don't align with the GOP, and it should be BLATANTLY obvious why we are terrified of the prospect that someone like Trump has made it to the highest office in the land. Thousands of years of history (litterally) has conditioned us to know he he is bad news.
For the record, I did not see one wrong fact in Reiner's statements. (FWIW, Archie Bunker is probably my favorite Pop Character of all times. All In The Family, did not care for Meathead.)
That hasn’t been my experience. My Jewish grandparents on both sides would be considered very prejudiced by todays standard. Even the 2 democratic grandparents would be considered prejudiced today. My parents would always have to pull us aside and tell us that what they just said is not ok. And both of my parents were politically conservative, and somewhat less prejudiced than their parents.
Maybe that has to do with my Jewish ancestors having come here almost 200 years ago, rather than the early 1900s as most Jews did. Or maybe it was just more acceptable to be prejudiced back then in general, I dont know.
And dont get me wrong, I loved my grandparents. They were great people who accomplished great things, in spite of their prejudice.
It's because old stock Americans weren't being prejudice per se or pre-judging, they were acting out of experience. Maybe they stereotyped some as does everyone else does, but they were judging others by the content of their character and merit, observation and common sense largely later validated by science. If your grandparents immigrated to NYC in 1910, what the hell did they know about America?
So you brought your baggage and prejudice with you to America? Why in the world would white European Jews need to hide, unless they're doing something undesirable and are guilty of something and paranoid? You looked to blacks' plight, but did you ever look to the plight of the larger group of whites in poverty?
I understand Jews can't go anywhere else but the West like say Asia and become much more successful than the majority and natives, and they certainly couldn't hide the fact they aren't Asians. This is acting as a Trojan horse.
No you're not. You don't just allow anyone who wants to become Jewish. You judge American whites or blacks and others by their race or label. Jews do not want Israel to be diverse or majority-minority.
This is the epitome of prejudice and paranoia.
Not much to say to this post, I was answering the question asked from my perspective, and that of my experience. I didn't bring anything to America, we've been here since before the turn of the 20th century. Why would Jews need to hide? Oh, I don't know, concentration camps? (The point was it was easier to hide as a Jew than as a black.) And do your homework, most reform Jews (not Orthodox) are very open to conversion and accepting others. My first wife was a non-Jew and embraced by my family (until she went bat-crap crazy on issues not related to any of this). My future wife is a non-new, a STAUNCH conservative, a Trump supporter and loved and accepted by my family as well, granted political discussions are usually avoided. Blanket statements are OK, but they need to have some truth to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1
I've heard that a lot from friends of mine. I really think it is an oxymoron, unless you are just talking about LGBT rights and such. Socially progressive to me means big government programs, and more, and more taxes.
Totally agree. Both are big government, big spenders, and all career politicians except for Trump. I know you dislike him. Let's table that for now.
So wouldn't the experience of the Holocaust, and other injustices throughout history want Jews to be for private gun ownership, the 2A, self reliance and less focused on growing the Collective, Progressive all powerful government?
Mine too, as my ethnicity, Italian American, saw some of that same stuff. In fact many took paths similar to Jews in the early to mid 1900's.
I don't see Trump as the totalitarian Hitler bogeyman that the Left does at all. Secure borders, and a focus on the American economy and jobs is not fascist. Also, the GOP is NOT aligned with Trump. They hate him. He is not the establishment they want to maintain. They only want careers, power, and wealth from government.
Great show. I was a fan back when it first aired. Always though Reiner's character was the idiot, but a good way to bring out Archie's bigotry.
Thanks for a much more reasoned response, with some fair questions and challenges. Mostly going to address your questions about 2A, based on Holocaust experience. It's a good question. I'm not sure I can speak for all Jews (or any group), because I know there are plenty who are for a full 2A ban. Me, I'm split. I live in America, and I know and accept guns are not going anywhere, so I don't even waste my breath on a ban. I think about it often, if we'd be better off without them from the get-go. It's hard to wrap my head around, because without guns in citizens hands, there is no America. That was our starting point, and I acknowledge that you can't turn back the clock and cherry-pick the facts. I've said before, I own guns, and I don't have problems with 2A, although I disagree with some others' interpretation. Argue all day (not you Pilot, anyone), but the fact is that the constitution is words that has to be interpreted. Anyway, your point is valid. As a kid, I read a lot about Nazi Resistors. Jack Eisner comes to mind, I can't recall the book, but 40 years later his name still sticks with me. There were a lot of Bad-Ass Jews in the Warsaw ghetto fighting for the resistance.
What can I say, I struggle a lot with thinking "this is America, it can't happen here" vs. "That's exactly what they said in 1933". You have a fair point, I don't have a lot of answers, other than when you take the TOTALITY of my experience, I fall in the range of "OK with 2A, but draw the line somewhere short of people owning guns that are designed with the purpose of killing humans (AKA: AK's). Is there some hypocrisy in my position? Probably, but if we're being honest and having a productive discussion, I'll state my opinion, acknowledge it's not perfect, and take the repercussions. I appreciate others who do the same.
FWIW, I don't see Trump as Hitler, but I do see some of his actions as a similar threat. He has a huge ego, and goes to great lengths to feed it. He does try to win his argument by discrediting the opposition. In his case, that includes the media and the intelligence community. I don't think his plan is to conquer the world and exterminate ethnic segments, but I do think it's a dangerous precedent. I would bet that Hitler didn't start off with a master plant to create the holocaust. I contemplate a lot, if I should tone down, tone up, or just be mindful of what's happening and keep my eyes open.
(FWIW: This is an internet discussion forum, and I say provocative things, just like others, to make points and elicit responses. My mindset in real life is exactly as described in the paragraph above. I don't like him, I don't think he's Hitler, and at the end of the day I'm marrying one of his staunch supporters. I know her soul and she has helped me to see that people have their reasons to support him. It's a tough balance, but I've come to understand that "there are in fact good people on all sides" of the political spectrum. Final thought, I'm a lot more conservative than my posts might indicate. I ABSOLUTELY believe there is no party that has conservative values. I am absolutely for letting LGBT, Ethnicities, Religions, to have their freedom. I don't agree that being socially liberal in things like taking care of our less fortunate is in contradiction with being fiscally conservative. I get that others do, but I don't. I do acknowledge the counter-argument to my point of view, and I believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Anyway, sorry for the long, rambling rant. I addressed a lot of things. Pilot, I could probably sit down, have a beer with you, agree on little, and leave with a smile and a new friend.
I have news for you. That crew is overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly white. Many of them even live in segregated neighborhoods which are immune from fair housing enforcement because the big money in the Democratic Party lives there, and thus if anti-discrimination laws were enforced someone would be out of a job fast.
Actually that crew is overwhelmingly Jewish. And the non-whites are likely to be Crypto-Jews. They go along to get along.
Not much to say to this post, I was answering the question asked from my perspective, and that of my experience. I didn't bring anything to America, we've been here since before the turn of the 20th century. Why would Jews need to hide? Oh, I don't know, concentration camps? (The point was it was easier to hide as a Jew than as a black.) And do your homework, most reform Jews (not Orthodox) are very open to conversion and accepting others. My first wife was a non-Jew and embraced by my family (until she went bat-crap crazy on issues not related to any of this). My future wife is a non-new, a STAUNCH conservative, a Trump supporter and loved and accepted by my family as well, granted political discussions are usually avoided. Blanket statements are OK, but they need to have some truth to them.
Thanks for a much more reasoned response, with some fair questions and challenges. Mostly going to address your questions about 2A, based on Holocaust experience. It's a good question. I'm not sure I can speak for all Jews (or any group), because I know there are plenty who are for a full 2A ban. Me, I'm split. I live in America, and I know and accept guns are not going anywhere, so I don't even waste my breath on a ban. I think about it often, if we'd be better off without them from the get-go. It's hard to wrap my head around, because without guns in citizens hands, there is no America. That was our starting point, and I acknowledge that you can't turn back the clock and cherry-pick the facts. I've said before, I own guns, and I don't have problems with 2A, although I disagree with some others' interpretation. Argue all day (not you Pilot, anyone), but the fact is that the constitution is words that has to be interpreted. Anyway, your point is valid. As a kid, I read a lot about Nazi Resistors. Jack Eisner comes to mind, I can't recall the book, but 40 years later his name still sticks with me. There were a lot of Bad-Ass Jews in the Warsaw ghetto fighting for the resistance.
What can I say, I struggle a lot with thinking "this is America, it can't happen here" vs. "That's exactly what they said in 1933". You have a fair point, I don't have a lot of answers, other than when you take the TOTALITY of my experience, I fall in the range of "OK with 2A, but draw the line somewhere short of people owning guns that are designed with the purpose of killing humans (AKA: AK's). Is there some hypocrisy in my position? Probably, but if we're being honest and having a productive discussion, I'll state my opinion, acknowledge it's not perfect, and take the repercussions. I appreciate others who do the same.
FWIW, I don't see Trump as Hitler, but I do see some of his actions as a similar threat. He has a huge ego, and goes to great lengths to feed it. He does try to win his argument by discrediting the opposition. In his case, that includes the media and the intelligence community. I don't think his plan is to conquer the world and exterminate ethnic segments, but I do think it's a dangerous precedent. I would bet that Hitler didn't start off with a master plant to create the holocaust. I contemplate a lot, if I should tone down, tone up, or just be mindful of what's happening and keep my eyes open.
(FWIW: This is an internet discussion forum, and I say provocative things, just like others, to make points and elicit responses. My mindset in real life is exactly as described in the paragraph above. I don't like him, I don't think he's Hitler, and at the end of the day I'm marrying one of his staunch supporters. I know her soul and she has helped me to see that people have their reasons to support him. It's a tough balance, but I've come to understand that "there are in fact good people on all sides" of the political spectrum. Final thought, I'm a lot more conservative than my posts might indicate. I ABSOLUTELY believe there is no party that has conservative values. I am absolutely for letting LGBT, Ethnicities, Religions, to have their freedom. I don't agree that being socially liberal in things like taking care of our less fortunate is in contradiction with being fiscally conservative. I get that others do, but I don't. I do acknowledge the counter-argument to my point of view, and I believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Anyway, sorry for the long, rambling rant. I addressed a lot of things. Pilot, I could probably sit down, have a beer with you, agree on little, and leave with a smile and a new friend.
Look, you are a democrat, you are obsessed with being Jewish and the holocaust. You imply Trump is like Hitler and that the whole white race is liable to commit a Jewish holocaust. Are you for majority-minority America too or not? If you think you are safer with "people of color" then congratulations that's racist.
Look, you are a democrat, you are obsessed with being Jewish and the holocaust. You imply Trump is like Hitler and that the whole white race is liable to commit a Jewish holocaust. Are you for majority-minority America too or not? If you think you are safer with "people of color" then congratulations that's racist.
The Holocaust-obsessed Jews are the worst. Constantly harping about how "we can't let it happen again." My question is, do they pledge to do THEIR part to prevent that?
Isn't he one of the Hollywood producers with all these sexual assault allegations against him?
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