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Old 02-21-2018, 11:05 AM
 
8,074 posts, read 2,377,255 times
Reputation: 5675

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
What did congress change?
The law. Most importantly, Congress placed limitations on the scope of this kind of investigation. The investigation in this case is limited to collusion and "process" crimes (perjury etc.). The attorney general (or, in this case, Rosenstein) can expand the scope if he chooses to. As of now, tax fraud, money laundering, etc. are beyond the scope of Mueller's power.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:27 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,863,397 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Dear lord.

Bridge, do you remember when you misquoted a passage from the bible thinking that Jesus was calling for people to be killed, when really he was stating a parable about a wicked king who did so?

I am mentioning that because, and this is no ad hominem here, I have never seen a poster who is so consitently misinformed about basic facts. Again, I am not attacking you--this is a serious and friendly suggestion that you are listening to some very bad sources and really don't come off well to people who actually pay atttention.

Natalia Vetselnitskaya is not and has never been a Russian official. She is a laywer. She allegedly claimed to be a governement lawyer, which is still not the same thing as an official. But the point is moot, since she was not actually one and no information was exchanged. Even had it been, no crime would have been committed. Which is why Trump JR has not been charged with anything. This is dead in the water and almost everyone else in the world understands as much.

As for Trump admitting obstrution, I am not sure that you understand the legal definition of obstruction. But again, were it this cut and dry, do you not think that he would be charged with something by now?

Really, I think you know in your heart that you are just making a lot of stuff up here. Perhaps get off the 90% bull**** news networks.
Ahh, how cute.

In case you forgot Jr.'s email, he was specifically told that he would be meeting with Russia's crown prosecutor and that it's part of the Russian government's efforts to help Trump. And his infamous response: "If itís what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer."

Veselnitskaya is a lawyer for the Katsyv family. They are oligarchs in Russia with ties to the state-owned railway company and are directly connected to Putin. She also has a history of representing the FSB--the Kremlin's prime intelligence operation. And she is a lobbyist for the Russian oligarchy's efforts to repeal/weaken the Magnitsky Act. She herself has admitted to being in regular contact with Russia's Prosecutor General (the Trump orbit is not bright enough to distinguish Crown & General) Yuri Chaika in relation to her anti-sanctions lobbying efforts.

Simpson thought she was a climber. FSB & Katsyv connections indicate her climbing has been successful. She probably fits the bill nicely as a go-between for the oligarchy & the Trumps--not so high profile as to be closely watched by foreign intelligence and the press, but trusted enough to carry the right message. The Trump tower meeting is far from "dead in the water." That is mere wishful thinking on your part.

We are in the middle of a complex criminal investigation. Charges do not come instantly. The prosecution team is building timelines using documentation & witness statements. They are not going to rush indictments before their case is ready. Manafort, the handler of Trump Jr. & Kushner at the Trump Tower meeting, has already been indicted. We are up to 19 individuals indicted with (as I recall) 4 guilty pleas.

Obstruction is a simple offense. 18 usca 1512 is where to look for flavors of obstruction. Trump was quite clear about why he fired Comey: "And in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won." He said he would have fired Comey regardless of DOJ's recommendation, and "it should be over with, it should... in my opinion, it should have been over with a long time ago, because all it is, is an excuse, But, I said to myself I might even lengthen out the investigation, but I have to do the right thing for the American people. He's the wrong man for that position."
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,614 posts, read 16,380,336 times
Reputation: 6343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
From Politico Magazine -

"If, like me, youíve been following every twist and turn of the Russia investigations, youíve probably wrestled with the same question that has been gnawing at me for more than a year now: What if thereís nothing there?"

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...skeptic-217024

What if thereís nothing there? What if Democrats put this country through hell for nothing?

The whole Russian fairy tale has been so obviously stupid that it's fascinating watching the lefty MSM start to come to grips with mess they helped create. None of them ever asked, why would Trump need Putinís help? None of it made any sense to me.

I get that it did to the left. The queen lost. It shattered a lot of realities and the only way for a lot of you to accept what happened was to declare Trump must've cheated.

But the truth is starting to come out now. Obama tried to fix the election and it backfired. Now Politico is trying to set the table by warning you all of what's coming next. Just look at Casey warning Mueller not to release his findings before the 2018 midterms. It certainly wasn't out of concern for GOP losses.
The Russia collusion was pushed by Clinton campaign staffers the day after Trump win. They were trying to salvage their pathetic careers. The media bought it since most are anti-Trump in the extreme. Trump miffed that his win wasn't getting what he felt was the proper respect acted rashly and tweeted out stuff about Obama spying. Then fired Comey which prompted this stupid Mueller probe.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:46 PM
 
3,436 posts, read 2,481,353 times
Reputation: 6627
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Ahh, how cute.

In case you forgot Jr.'s email, he was specifically told that he would be meeting with Russia's crown prosecutor and that it's part of the Russian government's efforts to help Trump. And his infamous response: "If itís what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer."

Veselnitskaya is a lawyer for the Katsyv family. They are oligarchs in Russia with ties to the state-owned railway company and are directly connected to Putin. She also has a history of representing the FSB--the Kremlin's prime intelligence operation. And she is a lobbyist for the Russian oligarchy's efforts to repeal/weaken the Magnitsky Act. She herself has admitted to being in regular contact with Russia's Prosecutor General (the Trump orbit is not bright enough to distinguish Crown & General) Yuri Chaika in relation to her anti-sanctions lobbying efforts.

Simpson thought she was a climber. FSB & Katsyv connections indicate her climbing has been successful. She probably fits the bill nicely as a go-between for the oligarchy & the Trumps--not so high profile as to be closely watched by foreign intelligence and the press, but trusted enough to carry the right message. The Trump tower meeting is far from "dead in the water." That is mere wishful thinking on your part.

We are in the middle of a complex criminal investigation. Charges do not come instantly. The prosecution team is building timelines using documentation & witness statements. They are not going to rush indictments before their case is ready. Manafort, the handler of Trump Jr. & Kushner at the Trump Tower meeting, has already been indicted. We are up to 19 individuals indicted with (as I recall) 4 guilty pleas.

Obstruction is a simple offense. 18 usca 1512 is where to look for flavors of obstruction. Trump was quite clear about why he fired Comey: "And in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won." He said he would have fired Comey regardless of DOJ's recommendation, and "it should be over with, it should... in my opinion, it should have been over with a long time ago, because all it is, is an excuse, But, I said to myself I might even lengthen out the investigation, but I have to do the right thing for the American people. He's the wrong man for that position."
You are still talking delusional gibbberish. She is not a Russian official, not in the employ of the Russian government, and even if she was, receiving information would not have been illegal. Nice ramble about "ties," but it is completely meaningless. What you said about her being a "Russian official" is false and delusional.

There is nothing here. No one is pursuing it.

As for Trump's statement...

A. there is no confession of anything there. The Russian investigation was on his mind, but no affirmative statement.
B. The investigation went on without Comey.
C. Thus far, there is no crime to obstruct.

Jesud did not call for anyone to be killed, and Donald John Trump will not be impeached.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:46 PM
 
3,871 posts, read 1,898,844 times
Reputation: 5374
Even the Democrats don't talk about it anymore. They've always known it was a nothing and the time would come to move on. They have. Now they stir up other pots.

Except the tax cuts. They know there's no gain in complaining about something people can see in benefiting them.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:56 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,863,397 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
You are still talking delusional gibbberish. She is not a Russian official, not in the employ of the Russian government, and even if she was, receiving information would not have been illegal. Nice ramble about "ties," but it is completely meaningless. What you said about her being a "Russian official" is false and delusional.

There is nothing here. No one is pursuing it.

As for Trump's statement...

A. there is no confession of anything there. The Russian investigation was on his mind, but no affirmative statement.
B. The investigation went on without Comey.
C. Thus far, there is no crime to obstruct.

Jesud did not call for anyone to be killed, and Donald John Trump will not be impeached.
Trump Jr. thought she was a Russian official. She may well have been acting on behalf of Russian officials. She was definitely acting on behalf of the Russian oligarchy. Russia is different than other advanced economies. There is no separation between government, industry, and mafia.

You apparently don't understand the crime of obstruction. You do not obstruct "crime." You obstruct justice. Impeding an investigation is obstruction of justice. Firing an investigator because you think he should not be investigating your campaign is a huge red flag.

Donald Trump is a kleptocratic authoritarian. Fortunately, he is too dumb to wield authority effectively. Unfortunately, his party has given him cover to enrich himself and his family at the expense of America.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:08 PM
 
9,490 posts, read 4,843,536 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Special prosecutors have special powers, ability to bring on talented help and focus on the investigation, I don't see that there was any investigation into Manafort prior to his selection as Trumps campaign manager. If that were true then why did Trump select Manafort.


Yes I noticed that some of the people at Skadden were ex-Obama staff, is that important. The issue is that Skadden issued a report for some unknown reason the white wash putting Yulia Tymoshennko who was an opponent of Viktor Yanukovych. I would love to see how the Skadden report blessed putting her behind bars for 7 years for negotiating gas prices with Russia.


If noting else Manafort and Gates will be held accountable for their participation in the overthrow of Ukraine, that is a good thing. One of Mueller legal team indicated this lasts indictment of Van der Zwan and others is the tip of the ice berg, there was a good reason he lying and deleting emails after he spoke with the FBI.
"A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN."

https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/polit...ans/index.html

I'm fine with money launderers, unregistered foreign agents, etc.. facing charges. If the FBI/DOJ isn't good enough to get them, maybe we need a permanent Office of Special Counsel that can

The only Specific investigation Mueller was authorized to conduct is the links/connections between Russia and people in the Trump campaign. Manafort, Ukraine, Gates, Skadden, etc. are important, but secondary to why there was a Clamor for a Special Counsel.

The overthrow of the Ukraine gov't. and the U.S. roe is whole different topic.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:19 PM
 
9,430 posts, read 2,291,528 times
Reputation: 4644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post

What if there’s nothing there? What if Democrats put this country through hell for nothing?

The whole Russian fairy tale ...
Sorry to break this to you, but it is Republicans who are putting this country through hell. Republicans from top to bottom.

Republicans implicated in skullduggery and malfeasance, and Republicans responsible for rooting out the truth.

Republicans head all the committees investigating these travesties and a Republican is the Special Counsel.

The Democrats? They do not control these events ... they are hoping that Trump does not successfully obstruct justice and hoping that if he is guilty he will be removed, but they have nothing to actually gain by removing Trump and replacing him with Pence. In fact, it could be worse for them and they know it.


So your spin is a big fail. To repeat: it is actually Republicans who are putting this country through hell.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:21 PM
 
Location: NY
12,263 posts, read 9,412,569 times
Reputation: 8028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
So your spin is a big fail. To repeat: it is actually Republicans who are putting this country through hell.
It's not "my spin". Blake Hounshell is one of yours, one of the top editors at Politico.

The reaction to this thread has been interesting. It's making me realize the left is in complete denial about Hillary's role in this political disaster. Mr Hounshell is warning you folks there's a good chance that the Russian fairy tale is just that...a fairy tale. But with disastrous and legal ramifications for the Democrats. Your leadership created this monster and it's going to get even uglier.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:49 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,863,397 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
It's not "my spin". Blake Hounshell is one of yours, one of the top editors at Politico.

The reaction to this thread has been interesting. It's making me realize the left is in complete denial about Hillary's role in this political disaster. Mr Hounshell is warning you folks there's a good chance that the Russian fairy tale is just that...a fairy tale. But with disastrous and legal ramifications for the Democrats. Your leadership created this monster and it's going to get even uglier.
Did you even read the article? His take is that there was obviously Russian interference & a host of Trumpites supporting it, but that Donald Trump was too stupid to participate.
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