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Old 02-24-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
7,983 posts, read 2,742,487 times
Reputation: 4279

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I've read many of your posts. You're pretty reasonable Bob...as far as statists go.

The one thing you have to consider is that being an anarchist isn't something we really choose.

It is what is.

Take the non-aggression principle. It's our Ten Commandments (even though it's just one). The reason I follow it isn't because it's easy, makes me feel good, or benefits me. On the contrary, it is difficult, frustrating, and requires discipline. It often results in things I'm not pleased with.

But it's logic and morality can't be disputed. Believe me, I've tried. It's actually an inside joke with many AnCaps. You try to get out but you can't.

I don't know if you caught Ben Shapiro's CPAC speech or not but in it he talked about how there isn't your truth or my truth...there's just the truth (Not that I'm endorsing Shapiro...he's a statist).

I can't get around the NAP. The reason why is that any preemptive force used by someone on a peaceful person (obviously) is the exact definition of slavery.

This is why we also go on and on about property rights.

If I go out into the unclaimed wild and cut down a few trees and make some chairs I have mixed my labor with previously unclaimed resources thus privatizing whatever is yielded from my labor.

If a man walks up to me and grabs the chair out of my hands at gunpoint (armed robbery) he has enslaved me. My labor was confiscated in the form of the fruits it yielded.

Therefore any transaction in which one party does not consent is slavery.

Taxation, laws, regulations, etc are all slavery. I know it's uncomfortable to think about but this isn't "my truth" it's the truth.



I'm not a "statist" because I love the State.

I'm a statist because I'm a realist, and I know that the complete absence of government is just a theory..... a theory that is doomed to failure unless pretty much everyone on the planet agrees to it.

The non aggression principal is useless unless all parties agree to it.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: SGV
24,646 posts, read 9,573,036 times
Reputation: 9689
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
& in the mythical AnCapistan, one is purely free as long as one's interests don't conflict with the interests of the other AnCaps.
You are always only as free as another party doesn't violate the non-aggression principle against you. That's called the state of nature.

Under statism, you are born and immediately victimized by the aggression known as the Social Contract. You accept and promote this violence.

Since there is no monopolized force under anarchy you may defend yourself as you see fit.

Under your system you need to ask for permission to defend yourself. Works well when there are no threats from non-aggression principle violators. Ends up with 17 dead when someone decides to break the NAP (where was the government protection in this government school?).

Those kids died because, unbeknownst to them, they signed the social contract immediately after sliding out of a birthing canal that said compulsory education under our safety measures...or fines/cages/death will ensue.

* I can't think of a scenario where death is the punishment for violating State laws on compulsory education but then again I signed the contract at one-second-old so anything is possible.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:11 AM
 
14,619 posts, read 3,878,225 times
Reputation: 10650
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoastforme View Post
100 million rifles. Probably 50 million modern sporting rifles(ARs,AKs, etc) 400 million total guns. Within 10 to 20 years there will be a half billion guns.

1 million kids under 10 on pharmaceuticals. Libs attack men and boys. Libs attack family and God. You've reaped what you've sown.
What the heck are you talking about? You are using the "liberal built" interweb and "liberal built" phones, computers, search engines and everything else to rant about Liberals?

Crazy talk. I can assure you that dozens (most all civilized) SECULAR societies have vastly fewer murders and gun deaths.

On the other hand, my reading shows that it's often religious figures who abuse children...let alone their drug use, paying for sex and praying for money.

You need to take a good hard look at these things called statistics and numbers. Oh, also, there is no God...if there were he wouldn't let 100's of innocents die by the .223.

I really doubt the Country Music Crowd in La Vegas was full of East Coast Libs....
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:12 AM
 
14,619 posts, read 3,878,225 times
Reputation: 10650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
You mean a revolver like this:
Ah, so that was at 150 yards? I'm gonna get me one of those. You should inform the police of their accuracy since they (usually trained) tend to miss a lot of shots at 20 feet.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
7,983 posts, read 2,742,487 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Most do not follow what those who claim to be Libertarian say on message boards. Most end up agreeing like here that they aren't even advocating for Libertarianism but something else.

Libertarians are not anti-government. They are for a smaller government otherwise they wouldn't run for office.



Agreed, but even many Libertarians can't really agree among themselves what should or shouldn't be official Libertarian platform.

Which is why they have such a hard time getting off the ground .
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:14 AM
 
77,923 posts, read 33,252,383 times
Reputation: 15578
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
I'm not a "statist" because I love the State.

I'm a statist because I'm a realist, and I know that the complete absence of government is just a theory..... a theory that is doomed to failure unless pretty much everyone on the planet agrees to it.

The non aggression principal is useless unless all parties agree to it.
There are many things I do not agree with that I do not put much effort in as I know it's not a realistic goal.

I am pro-life BUT we are never going to completely ban abortions so an argument that "I will work to ban abortions" does not sway me. No you aren't.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:16 AM
 
77,923 posts, read 33,252,383 times
Reputation: 15578
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
You are always only as free as another party doesn't violate the non-aggression principle against you. That's called the state of nature.

Under statism, you are born and immediately victimized by the aggression known as the Social Contract. You accept and promote this violence.

Since there is no monopolized force under anarchy you may defend yourself as you see fit.

Under your system you need to ask for permission to defend yourself. Works well when there are no threats from non-aggression principle violators. Ends up with 17 dead when someone decides to break the NAP (where was the government protection in this government school?).
It's science fiction to believe that there will not always be a lot of people that are perfectly willing to break a NAP.

Quote:
Those kids died because, unbeknownst to them, they signed the social contract immediately after sliding out of a birthing canal that said compulsory education under our safety measures...or fines/cages/death will ensue.

* I can't think of a scenario where death is the punishment for violating State laws on compulsory education but then again I signed the contract at one-second-old so anything is possible.
An uneducated populace will make my statement above even more true.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:18 AM
 
14,619 posts, read 3,878,225 times
Reputation: 10650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
We don't have a gun problem. We have a people problem. The tool is irrelevant. Come on. Really?
Ah, so the solution is to ask Trump and NRA members who is not worthy and round them up into concentration camps, eh?

Solutions are needed. Now. Technology advances...we humans are a smart bunch. You are correct that it's more than a simple tool problem. It's a complex problem - with multiple solutions. Again, if you can clearly explain why gun deaths in MA. are the lowest in the country, I'm all ears. IMHO, it's because people care about others and have common sense laws and regs.

Oh, we have our share of gun nuts. The local police chief - he was made famous by allowing a kid to shoot a MG and the kid (9 years old) use a UZI....who then accidentally killed the instructor.

But even with that stuff - lowest in the Nation. If the National stats were anywhere near the MA. stats we wouldn't be having these conversations.

BTW, I'm not fooling myself. Some nut is very likely to travel into MA. and shoot a bunch of innocents just to prove the point...however, stats are stats and they matter very much if one loves their children and their neighbors.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:21 AM
 
77,923 posts, read 33,252,383 times
Reputation: 15578
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
Agreed, but even many Libertarians can't really agree among themselves what should or shouldn't be official Libertarian platform.

Which is why they have such a hard time getting off the ground .
This is at least partially true. In reality it makes them more attractive to me. Many of my Libertarian friends will note, "we do not have to agree on everything, just in a basic principle".

I believe a large part of the problem is people won't support what they really believe because they believe it will allow "the other side" to win. Many argued that Hillary was a lousy candidate but they couldn't let the other side win.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,181 posts, read 17,510,541 times
Reputation: 15383
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Ah, so that was at 150 yards? I'm gonna get me one of those. You should inform the police of their accuracy since they (usually trained) tend to miss a lot of shots at 20 feet.
Are school shootings at 150 yards? Now, most likely at 150 yards the difference would be more dramatic. The 55 grain bullet in a .223 loses velocity and energy very quickly. The 300ish grain round in a .44 mag will retain it better. Not a sure thing though-the .44 starts at a lower velocity and has a big frontal area. Comparing the .223 vs a .30-the .30 will be far more damaging at distance due to retaining energy.
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