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Old 03-02-2018, 10:48 AM
 
18,127 posts, read 10,305,601 times
Reputation: 13230

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
What does that have to do with my freedom?
That is irrelevently emotional instead of factual. There is a difference in being subjects of the state and being a sovereign individual. You seem to have no understanding of that and conflate the two.
Oh sure; dismiss stats compiled that show YOU having less individual freedoms than others but claim other countries are not afforded superior individual freedoms.

"Subjects of the state" having discernibly more freedoms than yourself, living under legislation like the Patriot Freedom act and subjected to the HS, NSA and TSA nonsense, would make you as a sovereign citizen freer exactly how in your mind.
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:53 AM
 
32,300 posts, read 26,162,343 times
Reputation: 18935
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
As a whole, our country has seen a decline of firearms violence since it's peak in 1993. The exceptions seem to be our inner cities, and mass type shootings. Both are separate and unique issues which are going to require complex solutions. Ones a simple blanket ban like H.R. 5087 will not solve.


Inner city violence
Mental health issues


Those are the two factors we need to analyze and form solutions to. Have we seen our politicians mention a thing about these ? Nope. It's bump stocks, age restrictions or ban the evil AR.


Until we focus on those two factors things will never change.
you are preaching to the choir here my friend. we keep attacking the tool instead of the person wielding the tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisphotographer View Post
IIRC though, they are forced to do military time, thus receive better than you average American's gun ownership/safety training. Plus universal healthcare and all.
really? remember the church shooting in texas? that was a military man who had that better than average safety training, and yet he still killed 26 people until he was stopped by a good guy with a gun.

lets go back more than a few years, charles whitman killed sixteen people in the clock tower shooting in texas, and he learned to shoot, as well as gun safety, in the marines. how much better gun training can you get, unless you go to sniper school.

with whitman the problem was in fact mental, as i recall he had a brain tumor that ultimately drive him to the shooting. but either no one caught on to that issue, or they ignored the warning signs. read up here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

the mental health problem has been around for a long time, and we have continually ignored that problem, and still to this day ignore the problem of mental health. instead we attack the weapons used in a mass shooting. we claim that its the gun that caused the problem, not the person.

we have to stop blaming an inanimate object that requires a human agency to operate.

we also have to stop listening to the hysterical writings of those who have no clue about guns, and want to ban guns because of the fear they have about them.

we need to get back o using our god given brains for something more than a place to hang our hats on. we need to start thinking again in this country, too many people just react without thinking. and when they do that, they get into trouble. too many people are unable to clear their minds so they can think clearly.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:04 AM
 
18,127 posts, read 10,305,601 times
Reputation: 13230
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
What does that have to do with my freedom?
That is irrelevently emotional instead of factual. There is a difference in being subjects of the state and being a sovereign individual. You seem to have no understanding of that and conflate the two.


CDC statistics don't lie.
Guns in the hands of the public, save 1000's of more lives than they take, including suicides.
It has everything to do with your stated "sovereign citizen" claim giving you superior freedoms to those afforded other countries.

Those are merely two words not backed up by factual analysis showing them to have any impact upon your life other than the use of the ink to write them.

As sovereign citizens, you are "subjects" to the same governance and crafting of legislation that may serve to impair your freedoms to the same extent as anyone else on the planet living under any form of modern governance without those two meaningless words.

Get out there and exercise your sovereignty and let us know how that works out for you. They may allow you conjugal visits once a month.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,917 posts, read 3,602,790 times
Reputation: 12844
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Cool story bro!

That is why the USA is unique. You and I individually, are as sovereign as each and every nation, including our own.
No other people of any nation, ar afforded that freedom.
I can already anticipate the comments that will follow this observation, but it's my opinion that this attitude is part of why we are such a violent society.

I love individual rights as much as anyone, but the thing is, it seems that we don't just celebrate them, we have become obsessed with them, often at the expense of any concept of community or common good. Our most venerated heroes are "self-made men." The myth persists, in spite of the fact that no one makes it utterly alone. Succeed with little help? Sure. None at all? No.

Rugged individualism is a two-edged sword. It can lead to great creativity and innovation, but it can also, when taken to its extreme, lead to ruthlessness, alienation, and total indifference to the suffering of others.

I think we, the American people, are capable of great generosity of both spirit and material goods. I've seen many examples. I also think we are capable of stunning self-centeredness and arrogance, and sadly, I have seen many examples of that, as well.
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Old 03-02-2018, 12:44 PM
 
18,127 posts, read 10,305,601 times
Reputation: 13230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64 View Post
I can already anticipate the comments that will follow this observation, but it's my opinion that this attitude is part of why we are such a violent society.

I love individual rights as much as anyone, but the thing is, it seems that we don't just celebrate them, we have become obsessed with them, often at the expense of any concept of community or common good. Our most venerated heroes are "self-made men." The myth persists, in spite of the fact that no one makes it utterly alone. Succeed with little help? Sure. None at all? No.

Rugged individualism is a two-edged sword. It can lead to great creativity and innovation, but it can also, when taken to its extreme, lead to ruthlessness, alienation, and total indifference to the suffering of others.

I think we, the American people, are capable of great generosity of both spirit and material goods. I've seen many examples. I also think we are capable of stunning self-centeredness and arrogance, and sadly, I have seen many examples of that, as well.
I find it perplexing that the nation, once showing such cohesive charity towards the less fortunate, is now significantly mired in a "victimology" obsession. The "what's in it for me" attitude has grown twelve legs.

That is not to say the U.S. is the only nation thusly afflicted but one of the few who have turned 180 degrees.
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Old 03-02-2018, 12:58 PM
 
32,300 posts, read 26,162,343 times
Reputation: 18935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64 View Post
I can already anticipate the comments that will follow this observation, but it's my opinion that this attitude is part of why we are such a violent society.

I love individual rights as much as anyone, but the thing is, it seems that we don't just celebrate them, we have become obsessed with them, often at the expense of any concept of community or common good. Our most venerated heroes are "self-made men." The myth persists, in spite of the fact that no one makes it utterly alone. Succeed with little help? Sure. None at all? No.

Rugged individualism is a two-edged sword. It can lead to great creativity and innovation, but it can also, when taken to its extreme, lead to ruthlessness, alienation, and total indifference to the suffering of others.

I think we, the American people, are capable of great generosity of both spirit and material goods. I've seen many examples. I also think we are capable of stunning self-centeredness and arrogance, and sadly, I have seen many examples of that, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I find it perplexing that the nation, once showing such cohesive charity towards the less fortunate, is now significantly mired in a "victimology" obsession. The "what's in it for me" attitude has grown twelve legs.

That is not to say the U.S. is the only nation thusly afflicted but one of the few who have turned 180 degrees.
brusan is right. we have gotten away from that rugged individualism, and more into the everyone is a victim mentality. as a result we have become a society that looks to government to handle our problems, rather than handling them ourselves.

time was that when people needed help, they went to the community, and to the church for that help, and we as a nation helped those less fortunate than us. now we seem to look towards the government for help. we have gotten to the point where we want government money thrown at all our problems, but we fail to notice that government isnt solving any problems, but rather creating more problems so that our elected representatives have something they can run on to stay on power.
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Old 03-02-2018, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
17,630 posts, read 11,095,657 times
Reputation: 37655
We are utterly and ridiculously obsessed with guns in this country. Insanely obsessed. Gun lovers try to shield themselves with that second amendment stuff, and use weak excuses like " We need to protect ourselves against a corrupt government". That might have been true in the 1700's but we have evolved so far from those days.

If these gun lovers think they would need to form some sort of militia , they are living in a fantasy world.

While these mass shootings have been horrible, bad things can turn into something positive. Finally, we are seeing people beginning to talk seriously about guns and laws. That is a start, and the gun lovers are fighting every step of the way. When even Trump starts to turn his opinion around, you know this is headed in the right direction.
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Old 03-02-2018, 01:05 PM
 
32,300 posts, read 26,162,343 times
Reputation: 18935
wrong don, we are obsessed with our rights, all of them. every time a law is created, it takes away some of our rights.

in my opinion the founding fathers went too far in writing the first amendment, they should have stopped at "congress shall make no law". that lone would have ended many problems we have today.

but we also know that the second amendment puts the teeth into the bill of rights. take away the second amendment, and what stops the government from becoming one of tyranny?
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Old 03-02-2018, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,917 posts, read 3,602,790 times
Reputation: 12844
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I find it perplexing that the nation, once showing such cohesive charity towards the less fortunate, is now significantly mired in a "victimology" obsession. The "what's in it for me" attitude has grown twelve legs.

That is not to say the U.S. is the only nation thusly afflicted but one of the few who have turned 180 degrees.
I'm not really sure it is such a 180. I think the roots of this thinking go deep, and have been around for a very long time. I have a few ideas about why that may be, but many of them stray into a whole other topic: theology.
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Old 03-02-2018, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Middle of the Pacific Ocean
11,425 posts, read 6,186,032 times
Reputation: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
As a whole, our country has seen a decline of firearms violence since it's peak in 1993. The exceptions seem to be our inner cities, and mass type shootings. Both are separate and unique issues which are going to require complex solutions. Ones a simple blanket ban like H.R. 5087 will not solve.


Inner city violence
Mental health issues


Those are the two factors we need to analyze and form solutions to. Have we seen our politicians mention a thing about these ? Nope. It's bump stocks, age restrictions or ban the evil AR.


Until we focus on those two factors things will never change.
Even our inner cities, in general, have seen sharp reductions in gun violence since then. For instance, NYC went from having 2,000 homicides (almost all gun related) per year to having under 400. The change has been real.
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