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Old 03-04-2018, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,715 posts, read 11,202,975 times
Reputation: 6145

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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Especially the Congressional Republicans. Who are they trying to protect?

As Americans, we can take a hit, but with our market being the best destination for the worldís products, we can hit just as hard or harder. Why are we so afraid to make others cry uncle for once? Our workers and industries have been crying uncle for decades with no relief in sight...til now.

If many Americans take a big blow in a trade war, then we should simply step up to the plate and help take care of those that are adversely affected. Thatís what strong nations are supposed to do.

I mean, so many Americans have no problems with actual physical wars where people are getting killed and we never win anything in the end, but weíre gonna punk out and tremble at the mere thought of a trade war? Please.

If the Chinese and Europeans want a trade war, letís do it. I think we stand a good chance of winning it or at least getting a better bargain for our workers and our industries.
Why get into a trade war in the first place? If you want everyone to have a better life get rid of tariffs. Lower prices benefit we the people and no industry should ever get government favors.

 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:48 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,715 posts, read 11,202,975 times
Reputation: 6145
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Sovereignty has always been a matter of will.

In other words, the United States is an independent nation because the Founders said it was.

A critical element of our sovereignty is the ability, and will, to control who is allowed to import products into the United States and under what circumstances they may do so.

So, to answer your question, it's me and it's me because I say so.
What you just mentioned isn't sovereignty, it's tyranny. Our foundation isn't based on control, it's based on the rights of the individual and freedoms.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,715 posts, read 11,202,975 times
Reputation: 6145
Over the past 40-50 years the steel industries employment fell 80 Percent from 500k to 100k. The output fell only 20 percent.
Technology was the reason most lost jobs.

Mini mills that recycle are less intensive way to "produce" steel. The mini mills have replaced the less efficient mills and they use far less employees.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 03:40 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
21,397 posts, read 14,352,256 times
Reputation: 15843
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Especially the Congressional Republicans. Who are they trying to protect?

As Americans, we can take a hit, but with our market being the best destination for the worldís products, we can hit just as hard or harder. Why are we so afraid to make others cry uncle for once? Our workers and industries have been crying uncle for decades with no relief in sight...til now.

If many Americans take a big blow in a trade war, then we should simply step up to the plate and help take care of those that are adversely affected. Thatís what strong nations are supposed to do.

I mean, so many Americans have no problems with actual physical wars where people are getting killed and we never win anything in the end, but weíre gonna punk out and tremble at the mere thought of a trade war? Please.

If the Chinese and Europeans want a trade war, letís do it. I think we stand a good chance of winning it or at least getting a better bargain for our workers and our industries.
It's very easy to say, but damned hard to do! Think about the last recession. Think about how hard it was for folks to lose their jobs and then find new jobs.

That recession was all home-made right here. But the hit didn't stay inside our boundaries. It spread all over the world, and magnified as it spread, so it kept on coming back at us over and over, as other countries got hit, and began doing the same things we did.

Once a trade war starts, the effects on us will happen faster, and they will be worse. And more concentrated here than abroad. The world is truly a global economy now, and if we start a trade war, it will be us against the rest of the world, not just China or Europe.

It's a lot easier for the rest of them to just turn their back to us than it is to try to compete in a vicious circle a trade war creates. Once our exported goods aren't available due to a trade war, it will be hell trying to sell them once it ends.

The United States is the world's largest exporter of finished goods, food products, and some raw materials in the world right now. The quality and availablity of U.S. goods is strong, and our production here is strong. When a trade war begins, all that will change very quickly, and once our goods are no longer as available or as competitive, we lose.
Big. For a very long time, as all the other nations will be hostile toward buying them in the future.

So, detroiter- just how big a hit do you want us to take? We won't be the world's best destination at all once a trade war begins. Your talk is cheap, but the pain will be very costly to you.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 04:26 AM
 
50,479 posts, read 26,667,876 times
Reputation: 15759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
Over the past 40-50 years the steel industries employment fell 80 Percent from 500k to 100k. The output fell only 20 percent.
Technology was the reason most lost jobs.

Mini mills that recycle are less intensive way to "produce" steel. The mini mills have replaced the less efficient mills and they use far less employees.
Simply put, I donít buy the technology argument. I think we lost most of those jobs due to greed.

As Iíve said in other threads, the Germans have managed to have a very strong steel manufacturing sector since the late 40ís. Theyíve NEVER allowed dumping of cheap steel imports into Germany. They protect their jobs despite super high employee costs that make ours look like a joke. Theyíve got 80 something million people crammed into a nation the size of Oregon, so theyíre quite comparable to us, and yet, they manage to have a thriving manufacturing sector because German firms believe in a social responsibility to their countrymenís well being. Americans only care about the bottom line.


This is a great piece on the German model. Here is a small excerpt:

Quote:
As a share of its economy, Germanyís manufacturing sector is twice the size of Britainís Ė 23% of national GDP, compared with 11%, according to the World Bank. Unlike Britain, it runs a large surplus on trade in goods. The German steel industry has not buckled under the pressure of dumping by China.

Part of the story involves history and culture. Germanyís industrial power was built on a core of family-owned businesses, many of which date back to the 19th century and which often operate out of small towns. They plan for the long term, pride themselves on quality and see themselves as having social obligations to the local community
https://amp.theguardian.com/global/2...trial-strategy
 
Old 03-04-2018, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
18,122 posts, read 10,124,531 times
Reputation: 7034
Ask Herbert Hoover how his turned out.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 04:35 AM
 
50,479 posts, read 26,667,876 times
Reputation: 15759
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
It's very easy to say, but damned hard to do! Think about the last recession. Think about how hard it was for folks to lose their jobs and then find new jobs.

That recession was all home-made right here. But the hit didn't stay inside our boundaries. It spread all over the world, and magnified as it spread, so it kept on coming back at us over and over, as other countries got hit, and began doing the same things we did.

Once a trade war starts, the effects on us will happen faster, and they will be worse. And more concentrated here than abroad. The world is truly a global economy now, and if we start a trade war, it will be us against the rest of the world, not just China or Europe.

It's a lot easier for the rest of them to just turn their back to us than it is to try to compete in a vicious circle a trade war creates. Once our exported goods aren't available due to a trade war, it will be hell trying to sell them once it ends.

The United States is the world's largest exporter of finished goods, food products, and some raw materials in the world right now. The quality and availablity of U.S. goods is strong, and our production here is strong. When a trade war begins, all that will change very quickly, and once our goods are no longer as available or as competitive, we lose.
Big. For a very long time, as all the other nations will be hostile toward buying them in the future.

So, detroiter- just how big a hit do you want us to take? We won't be the world's best destination at all once a trade war begins. Your talk is cheap, but the pain will be very costly to you.
Oh well. Weíll just have to make sacrifices. This is a war worth fighting. Americans have been taking it in the shorts for years, and all you Neil Cavuto/Stuart Varney types with all of your talk about how protectionism is bad for American Jobs and American consumers, simply donít scare folks like me anymore.

The rest of the world NEEDS this market. There is no other market in the world with 325 million people that consume like a school of piranhas. Itís time that we use our leverage in favor of the American people for a change. Your arguments that favor a tiny coterie of multinational corporations donít resonate with me. If thereís pain, so be it.

You sound scared. Go to church.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 04:45 AM
 
50,479 posts, read 26,667,876 times
Reputation: 15759
Quote:
Originally Posted by dothetwist View Post
We do not have sufficient bauxite ore to make our own aluminum. We'd have to import it.
Banning bauxite exports will help a little. We donít mine much of it here, but what we do mine should be banned from exportation.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 05:12 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
8,540 posts, read 6,136,670 times
Reputation: 8457
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
It's very easy to say, but damned hard to do! Think about the last recession. Think about how hard it was for folks to lose their jobs and then find new jobs.

That recession was all home-made right here. But the hit didn't stay inside our boundaries. It spread all over the world, and magnified as it spread, so it kept on coming back at us over and over, as other countries got hit, and began doing the same things we did.

Once a trade war starts, the effects on us will happen faster, and they will be worse. And more concentrated here than abroad. The world is truly a global economy now, and if we start a trade war, it will be us against the rest of the world, not just China or Europe.

It's a lot easier for the rest of them to just turn their back to us than it is to try to compete in a vicious circle a trade war creates. Once our exported goods aren't available due to a trade war, it will be hell trying to sell them once it ends.

The United States is the world's largest exporter of finished goods, food products, and some raw materials in the world right now. The quality and availablity of U.S. goods is strong, and our production here is strong. When a trade war begins, all that will change very quickly, and once our goods are no longer as available or as competitive, we lose.
Big. For a very long time, as all the other nations will be hostile toward buying them in the future.

So, detroiter- just how big a hit do you want us to take? We won't be the world's best destination at all once a trade war begins. Your talk is cheap, but the pain will be very costly to you.
Et tu, Mike?

Me thinks your stance has much more to do with your personal animosity toward the man calling the shots at the moment than the objective substance of the issue. And you have plenty of company in that regard.

We would be hearing much more applause than "trade war" mania if this plan was coming from a Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, or (heaven help us) Hillary.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
11,584 posts, read 3,963,981 times
Reputation: 7171
The US is just going to upset Canada and Mexico and take another step towards the end of NAFTA.

At the same time the EU will hit back, indeed the Germans will be putting lots of pressure on the EU if their steel industry is damaged.

Current rhetoric from the EU involves putting massive taxes on US goods such as Harley Davidson Motorbikes, US Bourbon Whiskey, American made Jeans etc, whilst Trump has stated he would be willing to put massive tariffs on European manufactured Cars etc.

Europe threatens tariffs on Levi's jeans, bourbon and Harley-Davidson if Trump sparks trade war - The Telegraph

Trump escalates trade war rhetoric with threat to tax Europe-made cars - The Guardian

Trump steps up war of words on trade with threat to tax EU cars - BBC News

If this all gets really silly, you could see the price of a European Luxury Car such as a BMW or Merc massively increase in price in the US coupled with increasing inflation as goods made in countries such as China are far cheaper to manufacture than goods in the US. You could also see more unemployment in the US as luxury goods and high end manufacturing in the US will be hit.

Also steel in the US may become more expensive, which would have a knock on effect in relation to industries such as construction, car manufacturers, ship builders and many other industries.

Europe and the world will just continue to trade with China, indeed it may increasingly replace some US goods that have become more expensive with goods from the Far East. Trump's abandonment of the TPP simply accelerated China's displacement of America in terms of manufacturing, and a trade war with the world could just play in to the hands of China.

Trump seems to think a trade war is good, when in reality nobody really wins, and in the case of the US, it's own consumers and manufacturing industry could be hurt by engaging in a trade war with the rest of the world. Whilst Trump seems determined to punish the rest of North America and NAFTA, as well as Europe and China, and the US now has strained relationships with some of it's traditional allies and neighbours.

Diagram Link -Trump steel tariffs: European Union gears up for trade war - BBC News

Last edited by Brave New World; 03-04-2018 at 05:31 AM..
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