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Old 03-04-2018, 06:27 AM
 
17,788 posts, read 19,809,651 times
Reputation: 7443

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The Americans are NOT afraid of a trade war... the anti-Trump media who like to spin everything "It's Trump's fault" is trying to convince Americans into their hateful divisive message... where have you been the last TWO YEARS.... if you are a stupid liberal, the trade wars have been ONGOING for decades...

 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
11,635 posts, read 3,985,051 times
Reputation: 7228
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
I read your post... but it only makes my comment more relevant. On a recent job for Trans-Canada 30% of the steel pipe was produced in the U.S., 23% in Canada (by a foreign owned company), and the rest was imported from India. Eighty-Eight percent of the imported steel pipe was substandard! Once again, I'm all for a good and balanced trade policy with Canada so that hopefully both countries can benefit by bringing back manufacturing to North America where things are done right. Perhaps then Canada won't suffer. Let's hear from the Canadian workers if they want jobs back (if there are any still up there) or if the only one that is benefiting is the Canadian government as the trade policies now stand.
China doesn't export that much steel to the US, the major suppliers are the EU, Canada, South Korea, Mexico etc.

As for Trump's it's easy to win a trade war rhetoric, those words may come back to haunt him.

In terms of the steel industry it's not labour intensve any more, with a few workers and modern technology now doing the work of what used to be many thousands of workers, and this is therefore unlikely to be big in terms of job creation nor is it a smart move in terms of US production costs and inflation or in relation to US Exports. America may have the largest economy in the world but that doesn't mean it's a smart move to engage in a trade war with the entire world.

So far officials from Europe, Asia and South America are promising retaliation and Australia is considering tariffs on US goods, whilst neighbours Mexico and Canada who are NAFTA members are going to increasingly consider NAFTA to be pointless if the US continually stops free trade. Still at least you haven't upset Africa and Antarctica, although give Trump time.

Five reasons why trade wars aren't easy to win - BBC News
 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:36 AM
 
Location: 49th parallel
2,611 posts, read 1,364,190 times
Reputation: 5416
If you ever took a history class in school (and listened) or ever read economics in college, you'll remember that tariffs are not a good thing.

The universal response to tariffs is more tariffs, by every country that has been targeted, and suddenly everything costs more. Everywhere. What has been accomplished? Nothing. Except we the consumers now have raging inflation on our hands, and don't forget who pays for all these higher prices. We do.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:38 AM
 
23,103 posts, read 12,300,165 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
The Americans are NOT afraid of a trade war... the anti-Trump media who like to spin everything "It's Trump's fault" is trying to convince Americans into their hateful divisive message... where have you been the last TWO YEARS.... if you are a stupid liberal, the trade wars have been ONGOING for decades...
Find one positive article on a trade war that isn't some propaganda piece of a ride or die Trump supporter.

You can't.

Years and years and years of articles, studies, research, historical analysis on tariffs, trade wars, etc. and none of it ends well for consumers.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:38 AM
 
Location: N. Ga
3,695 posts, read 3,289,431 times
Reputation: 2058
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
In January of 2018, Canada's unemployment rate was the lowest it had been in 40 years.
The unemployment rate by itself isn't a true picture. A big part of Canada's new jobs seem to be government funded, and a big part of Canada's problems were due to the bust in Alberta's oil/gas business. Once again, let's ask those folks in Alberta who went from 75K per year or more to a 35K a year job when their Employment insurance ran out if their doing well? I have friends in Fort McMurray, who lost their jobs and their house in the fire and now are barely scraping by, but hey their employed right?
 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:41 AM
 
Location: *
8,096 posts, read 2,417,199 times
Reputation: 2215
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Simply put, I don’t buy the technology argument. I think we lost most of those jobs due to greed.

As I’ve said in other threads, the Germans have managed to have a very strong steel manufacturing sector since the late 40’s. They’ve NEVER allowed dumping of cheap steel imports into Germany. They protect their jobs despite super high employee costs that make ours look like a joke. They’ve got 80 something million people crammed into a nation the size of Oregon, so they’re quite comparable to us, and yet, they manage to have a thriving manufacturing sector because German firms believe in a social responsibility to their countrymen’s well being. Americans only care about the bottom line.


This is a great piece on the German model. Here is a small excerpt:



https://amp.theguardian.com/global/2...trial-strategy
Simply put, I don't buy the technology argument either, it's simply incomplete.

I too have brought up Germany as an example of a Country who seems to be managing their resources better. Basically I've posited that Germany's success is due to the Ordoliberal framework which permeates their economy, society, culture, community & so on.

Most Countries who are 'doing it better' have developed a mixed economic model & seek to manage by balancing the various components in an ever-changing environment (Earth) & while also considering ever-changing Country-specific conditions.

Quote:
A mixed economy is variously defined as an economic system blending elements of market economies with elements of planned economies, free markets with state interventionism, or private enterprise with public enterprise.[1]
Most relatively successful countries have been/continue to be influenced by Adam Smith's interpretations, observations, & work. Germany & the US are 2 countries continuously interpreting & re-interpreting.

The following is a relatively short paper (10 or so pages) which compares the 2 competing interpretations which have & continue to shape the US model:

Quote:
There are two competing philosophies when it comes to running corporations in the United States. Both are derived to some degree from Adam Smith’s famous statement in his classic work, The Wealth of Nations (Smith, 1776):

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Smith explained how universal self-interest and the “invisible hand” of the marketplace allocate scarce resources efficiently and promote social welfare.

One group feels that the invisible hand argument means that regulation is unnecessary and that “greed is good.” The group associated with this approach is against such notions as corporate philanthropy. In 1970, Milton Friedman, a Nobel Laureate, attacked the idea of business having a social responsibility in a New York Times Magazine article. The title of the article sums up his personal belief: “The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits.” According to Milton Friedman:

Quote:
There is one and only one social responsibility of business–to use it resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception or fraud.
...There is another approach to understanding Adam Smith, who was a moral philosopher. First, there is no question that there is a great deal of truth to what Adam Smith said, and the invisible hand should be used to guide the marketplace. After all, capitalism does a far better job at allocating resources than a planned economy.

However, Smith did not believe that the single-minded pursuit of self-interest would be beneficial to society, but, rather, that “society... cannot subsist among those who are at all times ready to hurt and injure one another.”

To Smith, benevolence — not pursuit of self-interest — was one of the highest virtues. Smith asserted in The Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759) that economic growth depends on morality, arguing that

Quote:
Man... ought to regard himself, not as something separated and detached, but as a citizen of the world, a member of the vast commonwealth of nature and to the interest of this great community, he ought at all times to be willing that his own little interest should be sacrificed.
...
Conscious Capitalism vs. Rapacious Capitalism:
https://www.westga.edu/~bquest/2017/capitalism2017.pdf

Not to be (too) corny here but "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”. This necessarily includes the fear of changing one's own mind about deeply held beliefs. Particularly when it makes sense to do so in response to changing conditions, environments & so on.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 06:50 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
8,559 posts, read 6,148,322 times
Reputation: 8521
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
The Americans are NOT afraid of a trade war... the anti-Trump media who like to spin everything "It's Trump's fault" is trying to convince Americans into their hateful divisive message... where have you been the last TWO YEARS.... if you are a stupid liberal, the trade wars have been ONGOING for decades...
This goes to the heart of the matter. All this "trade war" mania is all about Trump - and the "resistance". Not what's right or what's fair or what's good for average Americans and our national economic and strategic security. Just more of the derangement syndrome we've seen for over 2 years.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 07:36 AM
 
6,971 posts, read 2,601,710 times
Reputation: 2760
Tariffs. Sometimes mean saving one job destroys another.

Electrolux halts Tennessee project after tariff announcement - ABC News
 
Old 03-04-2018, 08:06 AM
 
23,103 posts, read 12,300,165 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
The unemployment rate by itself isn't a true picture. A big part of Canada's new jobs seem to be government funded, and a big part of Canada's problems were due to the bust in Alberta's oil/gas business. Once again, let's ask those folks in Alberta who went from 75K per year or more to a 35K a year job when their Employment insurance ran out if their doing well? I have friends in Fort McMurray, who lost their jobs and their house in the fire and now are barely scraping by, but hey their employed right?
I feel bad for those Alberta folks -- should have banked the cash while they could -- they had to know it wasn't going to last.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 08:13 AM
 
29,751 posts, read 16,443,859 times
Reputation: 13823
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndcairngorm View Post
If you ever took a history class in school (and listened) or ever read economics in college, you'll remember that tariffs are not a good thing.

The universal response to tariffs is more tariffs, by every country that has been targeted, and suddenly everything costs more. Everywhere. What has been accomplished? Nothing. Except we the consumers now have raging inflation on our hands, and don't forget who pays for all these higher prices. We do.
Loss of jobs, higher prices, fewer consumer choices and a lowering of living standards, but hey we sure showed those Chinese!
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