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Old 03-04-2018, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,091 posts, read 1,458,410 times
Reputation: 1419

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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeddy View Post
We should make steel and aluminum in our country.
Cheaper to buy from a country with abundant and cheap energy. Aluminum production is damn expensive.

 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:51 PM
 
50,640 posts, read 26,718,760 times
Reputation: 15846
Quote:
Originally Posted by First24 View Post
Exactly.

Or, a thread on how we should force foreign automakers to open massive production & headquarters facilities in the U.S. that create tens of thousands of good paying jobs here since we consume many of their products.

Oh, wait..
Lol..right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
The Americans are NOT afraid of a trade war... the anti-Trump media who like to spin everything "It's Trump's fault" is trying to convince Americans into their hateful divisive message... where have you been the last TWO YEARS.... if you are a stupid liberal, the trade wars have been ONGOING for decades...
I知 the stupid liberal that started the thread while your typical conservative is fighting this policy tooth and nail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
China doesn't export that much steel to the US, the major suppliers are the EU, Canada, South Korea, Mexico etc.

As for Trump's it's easy to win a trade war rhetoric, those words may come back to haunt him.

In terms of the steel industry it's not labour intensve any more, with a few workers and modern technology now doing the work of what used to be many thousands of workers, and this is therefore unlikely to be big in terms of job creation nor is it a smart move in terms of US production costs and inflation or in relation to US Exports. America may have the largest economy in the world but that doesn't mean it's a smart move to engage in a trade war with the entire world.

So far officials from Europe, Asia and South America are promising retaliation and Australia is considering tariffs on US goods, whilst neighbours Mexico and Canada who are NAFTA members are going to increasingly consider NAFTA to be pointless if the US continually stops free trade. Still at least you haven't upset Africa and Antarctica, although give Trump time.

Five reasons why trade wars aren't easy to win - BBC News
The Germans have an awesome steel industry that is more technologically developed than ours and they致e never laid off their workers.

The technology excuse is lame. We致e lost steel jobs because of corporate greed, not tech innovations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndcairngorm View Post
If you ever took a history class in school (and listened) or ever read economics in college, you'll remember that tariffs are not a good thing.

The universal response to tariffs is more tariffs, by every country that has been targeted, and suddenly everything costs more. Everywhere. What has been accomplished? Nothing. Except we the consumers now have raging inflation on our hands, and don't forget who pays for all these higher prices. We do.
That痴 right. We値l pay more and we should be willing to pay more to protect our industries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Simply put, I don't buy the technology argument either, it's simply incomplete.

I too have brought up Germany as an example of a Country who seems to be managing their resources better. Basically I've posited that Germany's success is due to the Ordoliberal framework which permeates their economy, society, culture, community & so on.

Most Countries who are 'doing it better' have developed a mixed economic model & seek to manage by balancing the various components in an ever-changing environment (Earth) & while also considering ever-changing Country-specific conditions.



Most relatively successful countries have been/continue to be influenced by Adam Smith's interpretations, observations, & work. Germany & the US are 2 countries continuously interpreting & re-interpreting.

The following is a relatively short paper (10 or so pages) which compares the 2 competing interpretations which have & continue to shape the US model:


Conscious Capitalism vs. Rapacious Capitalism:
https://www.westga.edu/~bquest/2017/capitalism2017.pdf

Not to be (too) corny here but "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself. This necessarily includes the fear of changing one's own mind about deeply held beliefs. Particularly when it makes sense to do so in response to changing conditions, environments & so on.
Bingo. This notion that we lost all of our manufacturing jobs because of innovation is a big fat lie.

We lost them because of typical American corporate greed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
This is just standard short-sighted policy making.

It sounds good to people who don't bother to think about the ramifications of what they're suggesting. Will it drive prices up? Yes. Will it damage international demand for American goods? Yes. Will it cost us jobs? Yes. Will it make us worse off? Most definitely.

But it sure sounds good if you just look at it as some tit for tat schoolyard fight and don't think about the consequences.
When is the right time to finally fight back against a system that has ravaged the American worker and his industries? After ALL the damn jobs are gone??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Exactly. There's this hilarious joke belief that if we just slap a pile of tariffs on all this stuff, magically all the jobs will come back to America, the burned out and leveled factories will reopen, and somehow Americans will be competitive at these jobs without us seeing price increases. That's not how it works.

I'm in favor of building things in this nation, yes, but Trump's approach - as with nearly every stupid thing he's ever done in his life - lacks a greater understanding of the situation, forethought, or anything more than basic spur of the moment impulse.
Trump may not understand the nuts and bolts of trade, but he knows enough to know that we池e getting reamed up the butt.

When should we put a stop to it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacoder View Post
Who is this trade war supposed to hurt? If its china its a big swing and a miss.
Boy, you guys sure are scared of China.

China needs this market too. Who else let痴 them dump all of their cheap crap on their nation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureaucat View Post
IMO, unless an industry is vital to the national defense, the free market should rule and no industries should be protected by tariffs, because the jobs tariffs protect are being subsidized through higher costs to everyone else. The higher prices lessens demand which hurts the economy overall. A hundred years ago, you could make the claim that steel was vital to national defense. Given the decline of the American steel industry over the last few decades and no accompanying decline in strength of our Armed Forces, I知 not sure that that old saw still applies.
We built this nation on tariffs.

This 吐ree market stuff has done little for the average American except to give them shorter drives to the nearest Walmart.

As long as other nations protect their industries, we should protect ours in equal measure.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:51 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,510 posts, read 3,528,665 times
Reputation: 4739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Nice try.

You know full well that free trade destroys the white working class which supports the Republican party. Any concern you may have for lower prices or economic efficiency are just rhetoric in service of your political agenda.

Your lame and desultory defense of free trade regarding steel imports belies your true intentions. Of course if we import our steel from China and India they have us by the balls and we cannot wage industrial war against them. Nice that you have concern for "our Armed Forces" (including capital letters) though.
Defending the working class, middle class, unions and American industry is racist & a REPUBLICAN thing? Good grief. This cause has been one of the main planks of the liberal platform for decades. It's literally just in the past week that the left has done a 180' to support the corporations & predatory foreign countries over the people and unions. Liberal politicians like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Jill Stein, Kirsten Gillebrand, Edward Markey, Jeff Merkley and others are all supporting Trump's plan.

So if all the liberals support Trump's plan, who fighting for more of this multinational favoritism that's hurt our country so badly? The NeoCon wing of the GOP, the NeoLib wing of the Democratic party. The Uniparty as they're known.

Wants to restructure our trade deals to benefit America:
R-Donald Trump
D-Bernie Sanders
D-Elizabeth Warren
D-Kirsten Gillebrand
D-Edward Markey
D-Jeff Merkly
G-Jill Stein

Wants to leave things the way they are, or accelerate them:
D-Hillary Clinton
R-Jeb Bush
R-Ted Cruz
R-Marco Rubio
R-John McCain
R-Lindsey Graham
R-John Cornyn
R-Orin Hatch
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:54 PM
 
50,640 posts, read 26,718,760 times
Reputation: 15846
Quote:
Originally Posted by zortation View Post
Cheaper to buy from a country with abundant and cheap energy. Aluminum production is damn expensive.
Fine!

Then we should make it very hard to buy cheaper aluminum from elsewhere, and I know just how to do it.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:58 PM
 
6,971 posts, read 2,600,752 times
Reputation: 2760
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Lol..right.

I知 the stupid liberal that started the thread while your typical conservative is fighting this policy tooth and nail.

The Germans have an awesome steel industry that is more technologically developed than ours and they致e never laid off their workers.

The technology excuse is lame. We致e lost steel jobs because of corporate greed, not tech innovations.

That痴 right. We値l pay more and we should be willing to pay more to protect our industries.

Bingo. This notion that we lost all of our manufacturing jobs because of innovation is a big fat lie.

We lost them because of typical American corporate greed.

When is the right time to finally fight back against a system that has ravaged the American worker and his industries? After ALL the damn jobs are gone??


Trump may not understand the nuts and bolts of trade, but he knows enough to know that we池e getting reamed up the butt.

When should we put a stop to it?

Boy, you guys sure are scared of China.

China needs this market too. Who else let痴 them dump all of their cheap crap on their nation?


We built this nation on tariffs.

This 吐ree market stuff has done little for the average American except to give them shorter drives to the nearest Walmart.

As long as other nations protect their industries, we should protect ours in equal measure.
Then try slapping a tariff on something that will hurt them.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:58 PM
 
50,640 posts, read 26,718,760 times
Reputation: 15846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason3000 View Post
Defending the working class, middle class, unions and American industry is racist & a REPUBLICAN thing? Good grief. This cause has been one of the main planks of the liberal platform for decades. It's literally just in the past week that the left has done a 180' to support the corporations & predatory foreign countries over the people and unions. Liberal politicians like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Jill Stein, Kirsten Gillebrand, Edward Markey, Jeff Merkley and others are all supporting Trump's plan.

So if all the liberals support Trump's plan, who fighting for more of this multinational favoritism that's hurt our country so badly? The NeoCon wing of the GOP, the NeoLib wing of the Democratic party. The Uniparty as they're known.

Wants to restructure our trade deals to benefit America:
R-Donald Trump
D-Bernie Sanders
D-Elizabeth Warren
D-Kirsten Gillebrand
D-Edward Markey
D-Jeff Merkly
G-Jill Stein

Wants to leave things the way they are, or accelerate them:
D-Hillary Clinton
R-Jeb Bush
R-Ted Cruz
R-Marco Rubio
R-John McCain
R-Lindsey Graham
R-John Cornyn
R-Orin Hatch
What I’m trying to figure out is why did these people vote for Trump if this isn’t what they wanted?? He CLEARLY stated that this would be the centerpiece of his jobs policy!!

What..did they vote for him just to get Obamacare repealed?? Or was it so that they could keep their guns!
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:59 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,510 posts, read 3,528,665 times
Reputation: 4739
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Exactly - It is not hurting China. It'll do a better job hurting reliable suppliers of materials and energy from friendly countries to the U.S. It has to leave one begging the question about what is the motivation of this. I don't think it is what is being portrayed.

That all said, it is premature. All we know is Trump has yelled this stuff out in a news conference and tweets. Nothing is official yet and countries like Canada may be exempt simply due to the extreme interrelationship of their economies. Canadian factories are actually or have been up until now considered part of the U.S defense industrial base.

Trump's steel tariff could drive up Canada's military procurement costs - Politics - CBC News
There's not a single Canadian owned steel mill in Canada.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 01:59 PM
 
3,093 posts, read 821,997 times
Reputation: 1750
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Fine!

Then we should make it very hard to buy cheaper aluminum from elsewhere, and I know just how to do it.
Yeah ... but employment at aluminum smelters (and steel mills) is now around 200,000. US manufacturers that buy steel and aluminum employ more than 6.5 million workers.

(And God ... I can't believe I just quoted the Heritage Foundation. )
 
Old 03-04-2018, 02:03 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,510 posts, read 3,528,665 times
Reputation: 4739
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
What I知 trying to figure out is why did these people vote for Trump if this isn稚 what they wanted?? He CLEARLY stated that this would be the centerpiece of his jobs policy!!
Hello, they DIDN'T!!! They were the corporate funded, never-Trumpers. The GOP didn't want Trump. The people did.

Trump is the most centrist President of my lifetime. As a lifelong NYC Democrat, he supports many policies the left has been championing for decades. Tax cuts for the middle class, rebuilding our infrastructure, renegotiating the trade deals that have hurt our working class & unions, etc. If the left could see through their perpetual rage, they'd realize he's doing some liberal things that neither Clinton nor Obama ever delivered on.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,260 posts, read 1,572,136 times
Reputation: 7827
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeddy View Post
we make less than a tenth the steel China does.
And most of my employer's customers want no part of Chinese steel. They want either domestic or DFARS-compliant, and China is not on the DFARS list.
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