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Old 03-23-2018, 08:36 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,512,309 times
Reputation: 18520

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
This is only a small part of the larger issue.


I keep my business as local as I possibly can.
It is not about economical best interest. It is about national best interest.

A smart man once said, " It is not what your country can do for you. It is what you can do for your country."

Selfishness, or it is not all about you? We do have a choice to be strong or be ruined.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:51 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,632,436 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Those who justifiably condemn the repeal of the Glass-Steagall law that resulted in deregulating banks have Clinton to blame. According to the findings of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Committee, “The decision in 2000 to shield the exotic financial instruments known as over-the-counter derivatives from regulation, made during the last year of President Bill Clinton’s term, is called ‘a key turning point’ in the march towards the financial crisis.”

.
Are you purposely deceiving or do you not know better?

The Repeal was part of a Omnibus bill that was signed during the last days of the Clinton admin. It was a REPUBLICAN Congress and a republican bill. I was there.....

You can thank Phil Graham and the rest of the same crew who largely blew up our nation...

"1999 Congress passed the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999,[23] to repeal them. Eight days later, President Bill Clinton signed it into law."

The law was, of course, put into place in 1933 by DEMOCRATS (FDR).....

Now, it wasn't this law that was responsible (at all) for our steel and manufacturing woes. Much of that happened under POTUS RayGun. This is known history. Many of our biggest steel producers filed for bankruptcy - it was the 1980's and early 1990's.

I am from the Philly area. I remember listening to the radio as plants nearby were shut down.
Please look at the chart - see that big drop-off after Reagan was elected:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._United_States

If you really want to know about the Great Recession, which is vastly different than the fate of our iron and steel industry, it's quite simple. The Foxes (Gramm, Bushes and the Rest) were watching the Henhouse (Wall Street) and they ate all the chickens. Period.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:54 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,632,436 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I keep my business as local as I possibly can.
It is not about economical best interest. It is about national best interest.

A smart man once said, " It is not what your country can do for you. It is what you can do for your country."

Selfishness, or it is not all about you? We do have a choice to be strong or be ruined.
Given human nature and our ancestors (our DNA), I don't think we have a choice. Short of everyone in the country dropping LSD and becoming enlightened, things are going to go on as they normally have *Greed is GOOD, Remember?)...and that means the strong, powerful and monied are going to eat their fill and leave scraps and scorched earth in their wake.

JFK had a nice speech. They killed him. Then they killed his brother. Then they killed MLK and whoever else was not behind the criminal gangs that run this place. Never underestimate the power of the Military Industrial Complex, Wall Street and the many others who dominate (we can now add the Russians, etc.).
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:58 AM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,673,674 times
Reputation: 14737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
China is thinkng strategically and they intend to take everything they can get any way they can get it.
This is paranoia talking. China has more or less the same goals as everyone else, just a radically different way of going about it.

China's #1 goal is to maintain internal stability via employment. That means creating jobs. That means producing "stuff", even if there is nobody to buy it.

It isn't as though they are trying to drive western firms out of business (like a 1980's Japan strategy), it is more like an obvious-but-unintended consequence of their inflexible domestic policy. You have to remember, selling steel to foreigners at below-production cost ends up costing China a LOT of money and resources.

Last edited by le roi; 03-23-2018 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:02 AM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,673,674 times
Reputation: 14737
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
The trade war started 25 years ago, when Glass-Stegall was dropped.
We have been on the losing end of that deal.

The sucking sound of jobs leaving America, happened fairly fast.
lol what? Where do you get this?

Glass-Steagall was a banking regulation that prevented banks from engaging in certain activities. It has nothing whatsoever to do with trade. And it was revoked 19 years ago, not 25. I'm completely baffled that you mentioned it at all.

As for the "trade war" -- I'll indulge you in that mischaracterization of US-Chinese trade -- it is believed to have started 17 years ago with China's joining the WTO. (Which, I should repeat, has nothing to do with Glass-Steagall)

As for the "sucking sound of jobs leaving America", you can see evidence of that in the 1950's, and certainly the 1970's, and absolutely by the 1980's.

Last edited by le roi; 03-23-2018 at 09:11 AM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:19 AM
 
8,490 posts, read 3,312,724 times
Reputation: 6929
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
This is paranoia talking. China has more or less the same goals as everyone else, just a radically different way of going about it.

China's #1 goal is to maintain internal stability via employment. That means creating jobs. That means producing "stuff", even if there is nobody to buy it.

It isn't as though they are trying to drive western firms out of business (like a 1980's Japan strategy), it is more like an obvious-but-unintended consequence of their inflexible domestic policy. You have to remember, selling steel to foreigners at below-production cost ends up costing China a LOT of money and resources.
^^^ THIS. China has a one-party government that overlays a managed-economy. There is a massive population that is gradually migrating to the cities, contrary to government policy. That the population remain stable IS the number 1 goal, and the government will spend whatever needed to maintain it.

Too, the country is somewhat xenophobic. To take China on in a public trade war is exactly the WRONG way of going about dealing with the situation. It plays well here, sure. But it will only give the Chinese government political and breathing space ... propaganda to deal with the negative impacts on Chinese consumers.

Anyone who thinks a Chinese consumer will break before an American is delusional.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:33 AM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,673,674 times
Reputation: 14737
Also if you want a visual representation of Chinese struggles to manage capacity in a sane way, take a look at these photos from their "bike sharing" trend:



https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...cycles/556268/


It is impossible to *efficiently* manage a planned economy of over 1 billion people. They could switch to a western-style, market-based approach, but then they'd have tens, maybe hundreds of millions of angry, unemployed workers.

The Chinese leaders are *totally* okay with losing money as long as they retain stability and control -- or in their words, "Harmony."

Last edited by le roi; 03-23-2018 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:39 AM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,673,674 times
Reputation: 14737
Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryLady View Post
Anyone who thinks a Chinese consumer will break before an American is delusional.
I think the issue is more about whether a Chinese firm will 'break' before an American firm will.

American firms that lose money for long enough will go out of business and shut down. Chinese firms that lose money will just keep going on, and on, and on, provided that the state continues to finance them.

If you look at the background of China's communist party leaders, it's nothing like America's leaders' backgrounds. Their leaders are overwhelmingly educated in mining, steel, engineering, and heavy industrial equipment. Heavy manufacturing is in the Chinese Communist Party's "DNA", so to speak, and it is completely expected that those sorts of people would think it is a great idea to jack up steel production as high as humanly possible.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,044 posts, read 13,303,145 times
Reputation: 19282
China could cause the US Economy and Budget a lot of problems if it decides to dump US debt.

Dumping US debt, a possible weapon in global trade war - Reuters

The World is now a very different place to the World many Americans grew up in, and other nations could inflict serious economic injury on the US. Although Trump's plan looks like sekf inflicted wounds, as it's just going to hit US Jobs and the US Consumer, including those in Trump's own heartlands.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:47 AM
 
8,490 posts, read 3,312,724 times
Reputation: 6929
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
I think the issue is more about whether a Chinese firm will 'break' before an American firm will.

American firms that lose money for long enough will go out of business and shut down. Chinese firms that lose money will just keep going on, and on, and on, provided that the state continues to finance them.

If you look at the background of China's communist party leaders, it's nothing like America's leaders' backgrounds. Their leaders are overwhelmingly educated in mining, steel, engineering, and heavy industrial equipment. It is completely expected that those sorts of people would think it is a great idea to jack up steel production as high as humanly possible.
True ... but depending how it plays out (time, extent) there almost certainly would be downstream impacts on standard of living, Chinese government provided services in any drawn out trade war.

The sociology of the Chinese population also differs dramatically from the American, still much more communal even as individual Chinese have rushed to embrace consumerism with societal changes. It's embedded in the educational system (not as governmental propaganda) but reflective of the culture.

Add that to the xenophobia ... the Chinese government is in a much better position to maintain societal support for any trade war (and that stability) than the our currently fractured US state.
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