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Old 03-25-2008, 09:00 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,417,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Its convenient for you to ignore the Democrats that voted for the war, and then continue to fund the war. (I even posted the votes) If it helps you sleep at night..
There was never the slightest question as to whether the AUMF would pass. Let's not pretend that there was any issue other than what the final margin of the vote would be. The issue for Democrats was over the "water's edge" idea. Should they vote with the President to present a united front to the world as Bush headed off to the UN to convince them to put a "credible threat of force" behind their Iraq resolutions, or should they vote their consciences which mostly told them that Bush was a lying scumbag who couldn't be trusted to keep his word. Meanwhile, once US troops were in the field, there wasn't anybody who was going to vote to defund them, and to this day, there still isn't. That could of course change if change in the White House were not evident by next year. That's what it took to get Republicans out of Vietnam, after all...
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:06 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,662 posts, read 3,820,323 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Just for a moment, lets assume that Saddam used VX gas and sent a few scuds into Israel, then dropped some nerve gas on Kuwait, and then shot down a US airliner and the US invaded. I am only saying this to remove from the discussion the reasoning for entering into a conflict in the first place. . . . .
I think you'd have to go much further to remove the reasoning debate. I mean he had used gas to kill thousands; regularly attemped to shoot down US (and British/French) airplanes; shot scuds into Israel (is there a difference between death by gas and death by explosive?); sent an assissin team to kill our pres. . . . and we still debate entering the conflict. More than that, our previous admin would be touting we're all at peace and respected throughout the world.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:06 AM
 
13,631 posts, read 20,713,962 times
Reputation: 7635
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Just for a moment, lets assume that Saddam used VX gas and sent a few scuds into Israel, then dropped some nerve gas on Kuwait, and then shot down a US airliner and the US invaded. I am only saying this to remove from the discussion the reasoning for entering into a conflict in the first place.

What would constitute a victory? How long would or should we be willing to stay? At what cost does it become unjustifiable to stay longer, expend more men and material? How much do we expend from our treasuries and our national infrastructures before we finally say, its time to come home?

One of my biggest complaints is the ever changing goal post in Iraq, as the reasons have never stopped changing and we are running out of reasons to stay. The latest is the term, "A free and stable Iraq", and I have to wonder, are we willing to risk the stability of the US for stability in Iraq.

When does the end game arrive, really.

A very good series of questions.

If they had actually found a stockpile of VX gas, anthrax or nearly-armed nukes, I suppose nearly everything would have been acceptable. But such was not the case.

As inane as it seems, a democratic and prosperous Iraq is a very appealing and intoxicating notion. And were that to happen, the powers that be could still point to that as a success. But they failed to see that Iraq, like Yugoslavia, was an artificial state composed of groups that really do not like each other very much. The vendetta becomes more important than consensus building and voting.

So that leaves you with dumping Saddam. Nice in theory, but like when Tito left the scene, the Pandora's Box is opened.

So victory as they predicted is not going to happen. At best, and this is a stretch, they may get something partial in the long term like South Korea after the war. Maybe. And is it worth it? Time will tell, but I tend to doubt it very much.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:11 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,961,336 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
There was never the slightest question as to whether the AUMF would pass. Let's not pretend that there was any issue other than what the final margin of the vote would be. The issue for Democrats was over the "water's edge" idea. Should they vote with the President to present a united front to the world as Bush headed off to the UN to convince them to put a "credible threat of force" behind their Iraq resolutions, or should they vote their consciences which mostly told them that Bush was a lying scumbag who couldn't be trusted to keep his word. Meanwhile, once US troops were in the field, there wasn't anybody who was going to vote to defund them, and to this day, there still isn't. That could of course change if change in the White House were not evident by next year. That's what it took to get Republicans out of Vietnam, after all...
So you admit that the Democrats voted with the President.. to avoid showing that Bush was a lying scumbag? Um ok.. then you have to admit that Clinton was a lying scumbag also because Clinton attacked Iraq first, and Clinton changed the policy to allow an invasion.

I know, you'll come back with some rationality as to why Clinton doesnt lie and Bush does...
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:18 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,417,965 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
The economy has been falling for the last year.. lets think about what changes have taken place over the last year.. Oohh, right.. Democrats took control of Congress and they have done NOTHING!!
More walking away from Personal Responsibility®. The economy has been wrecked by Bush, and he's been doing it since before he even took office. Meanwhile, despite seeing two-thirds of what they've done filibustered or vetoed out of existence by partisan obstructionists whose only motivation is to keep Democrats from doing anything that might work to their eventual political advantage, we have seen long overdue increases to the minimum wage, the beginnings of ethics reform, and an increase in CAFE standards. These few things alone blow away the record of recent Republican Congresses, free-loaders who preferred to spend their time playing golf in Scotland, dashing back to DC only to debate such important matters as the fate of Terri Schiavo. Managed to pass what, two of the mandated thirteen spending bills on their watch? What a bunch of freaking losers that group was...
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:25 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,961,336 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
More walking away from Personal Responsibility®. The economy has been wrecked by Bush, and he's been doing it since before he even took office. Meanwhile, despite seeing two-thirds of what they've done filibustered or vetoed out of existence by partisan obstructionists whose only motivation is to keep Democrats from doing anything that might work to their eventual political advantage, we have seen long overdue increases to the minimum wage, the beginnings of ethics reform, and an increase in CAFE standards. These few things alone blow away the record of recent Republican Congresses, free-loaders who preferred to spend their time playing golf in Scotland, dashing back to DC only to debate such important matters as the fate of Terri Schiavo. Managed to pass what, two of the mandated thirteen spending bills on their watch? What a bunch of freaking losers that group was...
Doing so before he even took office? Please tell me how he was doing it before he even took office.

I'll be sitting here waiting to hear your response, I havent had my daily supply of laughter yet.
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:44 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,662 posts, read 3,820,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
More walking away from Personal Responsibility®. The economy has been wrecked by Bush, and he's been doing it since before he even took office. . . . .
Let's talk Personal Responsibility® . . . The economy is one of the principal responsibilities of the House. It's noteworthy all this economy trouble has occurred in such a short time since Polosi and the dems took over. . . .
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:45 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,961,336 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNTT_Vacationer View Post
Let's talk Personal Responsibility® . . . The economy is one of the principal responsibilities of the House. It's noteworthy all this economy trouble has occurred in such a short time since Polosi and the dems took over. . . .
Dont you know.. Bush is to blame for EVERYTHING.. Why there was a car wreck down the street the other day and I heard the police were blaming Bush.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:01 AM
 
2,265 posts, read 3,725,681 times
Reputation: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Yes, everything they've done has worked out so well. The economy is fine, the budget is in balance, our people are healthy and prosperous, our military is in tip-top shape, able to respond to any challenge anywhere around the world, we enjoy unprecedented levels of admiration and respect within the international community...it's hard to imagine things being any peachy-keener than this...
The economy is slowing, but it's not bad.
Our people are as healthy and prosperous as they choose to be
We still have the greatest military in the world
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,155,863 times
Reputation: 7373
Kind of losing the question(s) in the OP there...
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