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Disclosure- I'm 71 but I did not serve - draft status 4A. Both older brothers did serve in the mid 60s, neither in Viet Nam.
Returning vets were treated badly at the time, but now things have swung to the other extreme and those same vets are now glorified. Some served honorably, many did not. But they all seem to want to be a hero now.
I am reminded of the words of a WWII vet, back in the 70s, when another WWII vet was bragging. Those words - "those who talk the most did the least".
My Dad was a Marine in WWII and called the talkers “windy”. He on the other hand would never talk about his service ever. He was invited to Washington, DC for the dedication of the WWII Memorial and politely declined.
and as to the 'war that was none of our business'..... have to disagree, since WE were part of the 'deciders' that split the country in two...back in the 1944 Yalta talks (FDR, Stalin, and Churchill)
Not true. After the war, the French reclaimed all of Indochina. Ho Chi Minh begged Truman to allow an independent Vietnam but Truman would not listen. So Ho commenced guerilla activities against them. The US subsidized the French for 80% of their war costs. It was only after the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 that Vietnam was divided.
War turns people into monsters.
Our own troops is no exception.
There are personal accounts that every time one of our soldiers came across women working in the fields in Vietnam, they were raped.
A lot of this is hidden from the public.
There is the Hollywood feel good version and then there is reality.
I don’t see any threads on the 100,000 innocent German civilians killed in the bombing of Dresden by the blood thirsty British with help of the US 8th Army Air Corp
That's because you have the body count wrong. By a LOT...
"An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed"
Also, keep in mind that Hitler "asked for it" by bombing civilians in Britain. He clearly targeted them - with bombers, V-1, V-2 and even artillery fired from France over the channel (and from ships also)....
If I'm not wrong, the Vietnamese never were complicit of mass murder of civilians on our soil. Right or Wrong?
We are getting off the subject. I think there is a lot of truth in various posts here, but one which is not true is that the Vietnamese "asked for it" to the degree that has happened in other wars. It was a war of choice in which the populace didn't want us there (in general).
These were crimes which did not demoralize the enemy. In fact, they used them to their advantage...and may have won due to our prosecution of the war (in various ways) which was too brutal for the American public and the world stage we wanted to "lead upon"...
No one has answered my question to my satisfaction, tho. Why do we prosecute and jail today for lesser crimes in the military? I would like to think the answer is that we are more civilized.
Despite the vast numbers of civilians affected, precision weaponry and careful target selection is an improvement in this matter - it can better target the infrastructure that allows an enemy to fight back. A perfect example is the Gulf war and the bombardment of the exact floors of a tall building which housed the AT&T communications for the country (makes sense that this would be part of command and control)...
Not saying "war is good", just noting that scorched earth is a sad thing.
That's because you have the body count wrong. By a LOT...
"An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed"
Also, keep in mind that Hitler "asked for it" by bombing civilians in Britain. He clearly targeted them - with bombers, V-1, V-2 and even artillery fired from France over the channel (and from ships also)....
If I'm not wrong, the Vietnamese never were complicit of mass murder of civilians on our soil. Right or Wrong?
Hitler asked for it, Germans never did. Killing civilians is killing civilians. Japanese-Americans and some German-Americans have never asked to be interned. war is hell
Period.
History is written by the victors, it is what it is. So Germans and ALSO the Japanese civilians got killed in that war will never be mentioned again. Everybody else is just fragile little victim flowers. I have a relative (now passed away) is the result of war crime (a product of rape) Did she ask for it? I think not. I am pretty sure some will shout, "What about the rape of Naijing?" yeah, what about it? As if my relative had to repay for the war debt.
I have a relative fought the Japanese in the Pacific during ww2, I also had a relative (looks nothing like the enemy) had been interned. This is the biggest MTF moment for her, I am sure. lol
I think ONE Of the lessons should be learned here is that Once the decision is made to fight, and the main parameters and strategic limitations established by the national government, leave the conduct of the war within those limitations to the military professionals and do not attempt to micromanage tactical combat decisions politically.
Lesson number two,
Prosecute war crimes (by either party) ruthlessly and publicly, so that everyone, both in the public at large and within the armed forces, can understand what is expected of them, what is acceptable conduct and what is not.
If things turn bad, either go all in to win, or admit defeat and get out. Do not squander lives on both sides just for political ends or for the appearance of ‘National Honor’.
Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 03-17-2018 at 10:30 AM..
Vietnam victimized everyone who was involved in this war that should have never happened. North Vietnam was a Third World backwater that was absolutely no threat whatsoever to anyone. It was all about body counts. Dead civilians and draftees gone at 19 years of age. Everyone was disposable except the generals and the political leaders of the time.
So you implying the US are the good guys. How do you explain with the use of Agent Orange which destroys all vegetation and the amount dropped in Vietnam was the size of Massachusetts.It has caused severe birth defects that afflict hundreds of thousands of their children.
Here at home, the war has not ended for many of the 2.8 million servicemen and women who went to Vietnam. These ailing veterans are convinced that their cancers and nervous disorders and skin diseases — not to mention congenital maladies afflicting some of their children — are a result of their contact with Agent Orange. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/u...-veterans.html
As a whole yes.........my link was an example of I do think compared to the NVA and viet cong we were "the good guys". As with every race,country,or society there are good and bad people.
concerning your second part..........I had a future grand child born dead with spina bifada........government says it is attributable to agent orange for children of vets but not grand children.........
I have "issues" with my prostate..............so tell me something else I'm not aware of........
Hitler asked for it, Germans never did. Killing civilians is killing civilians. war is hell
Period.
Sure, many many Germans and their allies asked for it. It wasn't Hitler in those Bombers over the UK.
German troops and civilians were known to have a high "spirit" even until the very end of the war. They were good at what they did and took pride in their accomplishments.
It wasn't as if they reluctantly fought the war - at least during the first year or two.
The SS had 800,000 members at peak - that's a lot of people who would kill just about anyone with pleasure.
Of course, the big corporations loved the war - lots of business. It took a vast percentage of Germans working in the arms industries to keep Germany in war machines even after multiple bombings...right up until the end.
This is to say nothing of the vast slave labor forces, concentration camps, the complete destruction of vast areas of Russia and Ukraine, etc.
Yes, they asked for it. At least in relation to the Vietnamese and Iraqis, etc.
There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation.
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