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I'd like to point out though... impeachment and conviction is a political process, not a criminal process.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
The president could shoot someone on national TV and it wouldn't be a given that he'd be impeached and convicted. Congress still would have to pass articles of impeachment. That's political. Voting yea/nay on that is political. Not criminal. And Senate voting for conviction is also political.
Do you really think that zero Democratic Senators truly thought that President Clinton did not obstruct justice back in 1998? Surely some did. But they made the political calculation that they are better off supporting Clinton than not.
The same is true today. There would need to be 67 Senators supporting conviction. That's 18 Republican senators that would have to defect. And given the current political climate, you know that even if Trump is caught red-handed, Republicans will be the first (actually second, since I was first) to point out that "zero Democratic senators voted to convict their Democratic president. Why should we defect then?"
And that's if we even get to that point.
You are right, of course. There is no certain outcome.
My post was in response to this comment ...
"Trump can fire anyone in the FBI and the DOJ or any of the alphabet agencies, for no reason at all and no reason has to be given and it is not impeachable, because it is under his full authority. Trump is the TOP law enforcement officer in the land. Elected. You remove him by the vote."
A rather defiant claim of impunity. I was hoping to clarify the concerns we all have.
I'd like to point out though... impeachment and conviction is a political process, not a criminal process.
The president could shoot someone on national TV and it wouldn't be a given that he'd be impeached and convicted. Congress still would have to pass articles of impeachment. That's political. Voting yea/nay on that is political. Not criminal. And Senate voting for conviction is also political.
Do you really think that zero Democratic Senators truly thought that President Clinton did not obstruct justice back in 1998? Surely some did. But they made the political calculation that they are better off supporting Clinton than not.
The same is true today. There would need to be 67 Senators supporting conviction. That's 18 Republican senators that would have to defect. And given the current political climate, you know that even if Trump is caught red-handed, Republicans will be the first (actually second, since I was first) to point out that "zero Democratic senators voted to convict their Democratic president. Why should we defect then?"
And that's if we even get to that point.
I agree it is a tough hill to climb. In the case of Clinton I believe that most people including Democrats in Congress believed that Bill obstructed justice by lying about the whole Monica Lewinsky affair but that this infraction did not rise to the level of actual impeachment of a sitting President. Most men and women lie about cheating until there is actual evidence so while it is bad behavior things like that happen all the time.
Republicans are solidly behind the president right now but while it appears to be unmovable I see some cracks in that support. Here is a recent Quinnipiac poll
Quote:
A Quinnipiac University poll, conducted April 6–9, found that 69 percent of voters, including 55 percent of Republicans, oppose Trump firing Mueller. Just 13 percent of voters said they support Trump firing Mueller, according to the poll.
A little more than half — 52 percent — of voters said Mueller is conducting a “fair investigation." Among Republicans, 54 percent said they believe the investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election is not fair.
So 55% of Republicans oppose firing Mueller, that says something. It is those Republicans that you need to pay attention to. I grew up in the heartland and these people are my friends and family. It is the very nature of conservatives to tow the party line. So far in their eyes there has not been enough factual evidence of wrong doing by Trump to change their minds but that doesn't mean that can't happen. If they don't want to see Trump fire Mueller then that means they are open to what the investigation produces. If Mueller or another part of the DOJ presents and airtight case of wrong doing by Trump he will not keep the support of ALL the Republicans he has now. Then the odds of actual impeachment becomes stronger. I think half of current Republicans will support Trump no matter what but there are alot of variables here that we simply don't have any idea how they will play out. Just my opinion on the matter.
Plenty of Republicans stuck by Nixon right up to the point that the tape was released.
Once they saw the evidence that he was lying, his support melted and, well, you all know how it turned out.
Of course, that was before Fox News, and Alex Jones, and Breitbart, ...
But if Trump didn't hide his Russia tracks any better than his Stormy tracks, there is bound to come a moment when Republicans will have to to come to terms with whether continuing to support Trump is fool's game or not.
Many Republicans in Congress have come to that moment. Ryan just announced that he's out of here.
Firing Rosenstein and/or Mueller is unlikely to strengthen Trump's support.
The people requesting the documents, are the people placed with oversight of criminal investigations by the FBI/DOJ. The checks and balances, thing.
Failure to allow congressional oversight, has always led to discovery of corruption by those refusing to cough it up.
The DOJ is required not to turn over grand jury documents.
If there is criminal investigations ongoing into FBI/DOJ corruption, and that is almost certainly the case, the DOJ can, and in fact is required to withhold that information from congress.
You think Rosenstein would appoint another "special council"?
That would not make sense. The special council was authorized to investigate the following
(i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals
associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
then there is
(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is
authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.
That gives him pretty wide scope, if you look at 28 CFR it states that any additional jurisdiction would have to defined authorized by the DOJ in this case Rosenstein, so if the claim is that Mueller has overstepped unless he did not seek approval from the AGA in which case it would be highly illegal, there is no grounds to remove Mueller because he can only do what the AGA allows him to do, and if the AGA signs off on it then it becomes his jurisdiction by definition. Maybe he can dismiss Rosenstein, but a new special counsel wouldn't make sense unless your argument is that he is mean.
It is going to happen, with full authority and then some.
You guys had better quit gassing Trump’s head up and making him think he can do things that he really should avoid doing.
Keep playing...Trump is gonna end up giving a farewell speech and taking a long walk out to a helicopter that’ll take his ass back to Trump Towers.
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