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The US was libertarian for most of its history. Which was great for the elites: plantation owners, wealthy industrialists, railroad barons, and the political class. People with power were free to do whatever they wanted to whomever they wanted. It was great...for them. It wasn’t so great for everyone else: slaves, poor farmers, poor immigrants, coal miners, mill workers, child laborers (the 99%).
-Plantations weren't libertarian because they required the ownership of people.
-Wealthy industrialists weren't libertarian--they were crony corporatists. Not even close to the same thing.
-Railroad barons were cronies as well.
-A political class and libertarianism are contradictions. There is no such thing as libertarian politics.
-Slavery is incompatible with libertarianism.
-Farmers are either poor or rich according to their skill at farming.
-Immigrants and other laborers are welcome to work for market wages.
Mmm hmmm keep up the childish tribalistic insults.
It's not an insult though. We've been over this.
1. You admit that you support preemptive violence against peaceful people.
2. The only legitimacy you recognize is force.
3. I tried asserting my violence on you but your hired mercenaries are indeed too powerful for me.
Wouldn't it stand to reason, based on your logic, that people will constantly be trying to rule over you specifically? You won't do your dirty work personally. You won't defend yourself personally. And you gladly pay/participate to grow the power of your government.
If North Korea takes over tomorrow you'll simply switch the address on your tax forms from D.C. to Pyongyang.
Eh there was some decent philosophical discorse in this thread but it appears the time has passed.
Good luck getting the amount of people you need to change to world on your side with your current strategy of calling literally everyone who isn't already a part of your "in group" cowards and murderers. To be expected in POC of course.
Homie, right now, if we can agree on bloodthirsty U.S. foreign policy, that's all that matters. The economics can be settled at a later time.
I will say though that in an ancap society you and other ansyns would be free to set up any township you'd like under your economic system, just as long as you don't force it on those of us who don't wish to participate.
My problem is that economics is directly related to freedom being as it is hard for two fundamentally different systems to exist at once.
For anarchy to be established it is in my mind that certain universal laws should be set that will be enforced by the mere fact that the tools used to break it won't be available.
This gets to heart of my problem with capitalism. If you say an individual (a capitalist) is allowed to control resources by simple right of 'ownership' then the power balanced is tipped away from individual autonomy towards an excess accumulation into the hands of one person. Such a power measure will not equate to that individuals production ability and therefore not reflect their own value.
If someone is able to accumulate such power they will have the tools (under capitalism) to obtain resources (that no one can inherently 'own') which will be used to control the labor and freedom of other individuals just as the state does. With the concept of private property being established eventually every public resource that is able to mass produce a needed service or good for society to function will be in private hands allowing corporate powers to unbalance the power structure of individual freedoms.
Eventually, as capitalism is modeled after endless growth, the system will eat up everyone around it and force free individuals to choose between working FOR someone or starvation. Such a system is perpetrated under a hierarchy of power were people's lives must be dictated under the will of someone else.
Maintaining principles that no one has a right to 'own' anything and labor is democratized based off of how much the individual wants to work and were they want to work builds a communal system that IS voluntary.
How so you may ask? If an organized society are formed not under de-centralized authorities but rather representative federations of individuals who work how and when they desire it can be then acknowledged that those who either do not want work or do not want to mass produce will be allowed not to.
That being said having an individual hire underlings to work for them is just another establishment of power controlling individuals which is inherently against societal freedom.
You cannot, in summation, expect a capitalist system to be allowed because such a system involves distributing power into the hands of a few with the end goal of growth. Keeping power at an individual level provides open usage of all resources to the working class along with a stable earth for the future.
The US was libertarian for most of its history. Which was great for the elites: plantation owners, wealthy industrialists, railroad barons, and the political class. People with power were free to do whatever they wanted to whomever they wanted. It was great...for them. It wasn’t so great for everyone else: slaves, poor farmers, poor immigrants, coal miners, mill workers, child laborers (the 99%).
On the surface, yes but the problem is if you look at the initial who could vote, it was land-owning males. It was great if you owned land and were male, that don't really sound libertarian does it?
That's when the transition to 'religion' occurred, when the self-named 'disciples' of the Austrian economists, & of Ayn Rand, & Milton Friedman et al turned to worshipping their idols, self-made gods, et cetera:
The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits
By Milton Friedman The New York Times Magazine, September 13, 1970. Copyright @ 1970 by The New York Times Company.
Somewhere along the line they were convinced you need private control over capital in order to have freedom. Sadly such a system is only a formula for more slavery.
Catching the drift of what you're saying here & agree. The following illustrates:
Free Market Fundamentalism: Friedman, Pinochet and the "Chilean Miracle" A personal essay in hypertext by Scott Bidstrup
Quote:
..."Neoliberalism" is not based on Adam Smith, as is often claimed for it by the libertarian propaganda, but is, in reality, based largely on the ideas of an Austrian economist, Friedrick Hayek, who had written in the 1930's that the control of an economy by a government is the "road to serfdom," as he titled his treatise. Asserting that human rights sprang from property rights, he claimed that a society could be no more free than its economy. The two principal failures of his analysis, were of course, first, the premise that human rights are a function of property rights, and that a society that planned its economy was doomed to serfdom. What Hayek never considered is that the obverse of such a policy is obviously that someone who has no property, has no rights, which means that person is, quite obviously, vulnerable to the very serfdom that Hayek claimed to fear. ...
People claiming force is only justified if force is initiated against them.
Claim all people living under a state are murderers actively committing violence upon them.
Ergo, by their philosophy they would be justified in murdering any random person unprovoked in self defense from the violence of the state. Every mass murderer who committed crimes inside a state in history is justified.
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