Why is any mention of what rape victims should or shouldn't have done victim blaming? (defence, England)

[tamajane]

Originally Posted by Rocko20

Women often don’t say no. You would know that if you looked up the statistics.

But the point again is that society/culture is a lot at fault for fostering a rape culture. Victims get accused of lying, cops don’t report some rapes seriously, some women don’t report rape at all, employers or other officials ignore charges of rape or look the other way, the process of reporting rape is often long and expensive or embarrassing, etc.

Society has fostered this toxic culture of rape and there needs to be massive changes.

It's getting better but it is very important that women verbalize NO if a guy is being too aggressive. They really need to do that.

[Nickchick]

Originally Posted by jjrose

"Hey, you want to go get coffee sometime" is not going to be seen as sexual harassment no matter who says it. Now, if the other person says no, then you have their answer so stop there. If you continue pushing or harassing the person then you crossed a line.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that no means no regardless of if it is in response to "want to go out" or in regards to sex. Someone says no STOP.

Yes it is. In the Me Too culture anything can be seen as sexual harassment. How would they know how the woman is going to react? This is especially true if the man doesn't know her that well and even worse if the man suspects she's already been hurt by someone.


I agree with Bill Maher on this one. Society has become far too sensitive these days. Look at how people were getting mad about Amy Schumer's new movie calling it offensive for example.

[Brave New World]

It is important to get both sides of any rape allegation, as without witnesses, forensics or CCTV it is often just one persons words again another and I know from my own country that far too many innocent men have been jailed and have had their lives ruined or have even committed suicide.

A few stories from the UK -

Rape claims: 109 women prosecuted for false allegations over five years - Telegraph

Lesbian fantasist invented 15 rapes and sexual assaults which saw man jailed to get sympathy from girlfriends, court hears - Telegraph

Woman jailed for false rape claim against soldier - BBC News

Police officer was on verge of suicide after false rape accusation as woman who accused him is jailed - Mirror Online

Compulsive liar jailed after 11 false rape claims in decade - Telegraph

False rape accusation 'destroyed life' of Surrey man - BBC News

Teenager accused of rape commits suicide - Telegraph

Mother of son who hanged himself after being accused of rape commits suicide a year later - Telegraph

'Guilty until proven innocent': life after a false rape accusation - Telegraph

Commuter cleared of 'ludicrous' sex assault warns the same could happen to any man | London - ITV News

Dragged through hell by rape police who 'buried' evidence about their 'twisted' accuser: Four men cleared of attack at student ball speak out after officers 'airbrushed woman's interest in group sex | Daily Mail Online

Anna Costin who made false rape claims is now jailed for four years | Daily Mail Online

Fake rape claim woman loses appeal against sentence - BBC News

[leebeemi]

Originally Posted by tamajane

It's getting better but it is very important that women verbalize NO if a guy is being too aggressive. They really need to do that.

How about if I don't say "yes" when asked, I don't get shot or otherwise assaulted? Seriously, if a man is being "too aggressive," there's already a line crossed, and it gets scary.



Do I have to stand on a table and yell "NOOOOOOO!" until he goes away?



She should have said, "No."
Well, she should have said it louder.
And more often.

She shouldn't have led him on.
She shouldn't have been dancing like that!
Why did she drink so much?
Did you see what she was wearing?
What should she expect?
Doesn't she have any self-respect?
Boys will be boys.
She has a bad reputation.
They were dating last week!
She shouldn't have walked in that neighborhood.
She shouldn't have taken a ride from him.
She should have watched her drink more carefully.
Why would she trust him?
She knows what he was looking for.
Everyone knows you can't dress like that around these guys.
Everyone knows men have no self-control!
It'll ruin his life!
One little mistake, and his life is over.
She's a **** anyway.
She's feeling remorse, so she'd say anything.








Rape is only ever the fault of the rapist.

[Brave New World]

Couple of very recent US Cases -

2 men exonerated after 26 years when woman admits to false rape claim - USA Today

New York woman in false rape case says she never said she was raped | Daily Mail Online

College girl charged for false rape claim on campus - New York Post

Other countries across the world also have the same problem, so whilst I am not in favour of victim blaming, I am also not in favour of jailing anyone without evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt which is over the 99% threshold in the Criminal Court System and many rape cases especially where there is little evidence beyond an accusation do not meet this threshold.

Does India have a problem with false rape claims? - BBC News

[2mares]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

It is important to get both sides of any rape allegation, as without witnesses, forensics or CCTV it is often just one persons words again another and I know from my own country that far too many innocent men have been jailed and have had their lives ruined or have even committed suicide.

A few stories from the UK -

Rape claims: 109 women prosecuted for false allegations over five years - Telegraph

Lesbian fantasist invented 15 rapes and sexual assaults which saw man jailed to get sympathy from girlfriends, court hears - Telegraph

Woman jailed for false rape claim against soldier - BBC News

Police officer was on verge of suicide after false rape accusation as woman who accused him is jailed - Mirror Online

Compulsive liar jailed after 11 false rape claims in decade - Telegraph

False rape accusation 'destroyed life' of Surrey man - BBC News

Teenager accused of rape commits suicide - Telegraph

Mother of son who hanged himself after being accused of rape commits suicide a year later - Telegraph

'Guilty until proven innocent': life after a false rape accusation - Telegraph

Commuter cleared of 'ludicrous' sex assault warns the same could happen to any man | London - ITV News

Dragged through hell by rape police who 'buried' evidence about their 'twisted' accuser: Four men cleared of attack at student ball speak out after officers 'airbrushed woman's interest in group sex | Daily Mail Online

I don't know how British courts conduct cases but here its more than an accusation. There are rape kits and questioning, DNA evidence, eye witnesses, etc. Women's pasts, irrelevant information, accusations are drug out in public court.
I remember being in a court room where there was some questioning about a older rape case as it often take months or years before the case in heard in court. They were grilling this poor girl on what the guy was wearing, trying to discredit her. The clothing questioning went on for about 45 minutes. She was in tears before they were through with her.
Not to say there are not false accusation as in any type of crime but the defendant gets to have his side of the story heard and is generally treated better than the claimant.

[kajo13]

Originally Posted by Rocko20

America is not doing enough to prevent rapes, report rapes, and criminalize rapes.


The statistic reflect that.


What exactly can't you understand?

You could have saved everyone a lot of grief by just writing one sentence instead paragraphs of gibberish including all the first move BS, which actually doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.



Christ, what a waste of time.

[Sydney123]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

It is important to get both sides of any rape allegation, as without witnesses, forensics or CCTV it is often just one persons words again another and I know from my own country that far too many innocent men have been jailed and have had their lives ruined or have even committed suicide.

A few stories from the UK -

Rape claims: 109 women prosecuted for false allegations over five years - Telegraph

Lesbian fantasist invented 15 rapes and sexual assaults which saw man jailed to get sympathy from girlfriends, court hears - Telegraph

Woman jailed for false rape claim against soldier - BBC News

Police officer was on verge of suicide after false rape accusation as woman who accused him is jailed - Mirror Online

Compulsive liar jailed after 11 false rape claims in decade - Telegraph

False rape accusation 'destroyed life' of Surrey man - BBC News

Teenager accused of rape commits suicide - Telegraph

Mother of son who hanged himself after being accused of rape commits suicide a year later - Telegraph

'Guilty until proven innocent': life after a false rape accusation - Telegraph

Commuter cleared of 'ludicrous' sex assault warns the same could happen to any man | London - ITV News

Dragged through hell by rape police who 'buried' evidence about their 'twisted' accuser: Four men cleared of attack at student ball speak out after officers 'airbrushed woman's interest in group sex | Daily Mail Online

Totally off topic... this isn't about allegations, but rather self defense in the event of an actual or perceived assault. It's not a condemnation of men or false allegations. The subject may be valid, just not here and now.

[HockeyMac18]

Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian

Because regardless of a person's actions, nobody deserves to be the victim of an initiation of force. It's the most fundamental principle of proper human interaction.

Also, explaining all the things a person did wrong to put themselves in the path of an initiation of force against them helps alleviate the pain and suffering of that initiation of force how exactly? Pretty sure the rape/assault/theft is sufficient lesson about what they could/should have done differently, and you or anyone tossing in your two cents on that subject is pure sanctimony and condescension. You think your nuggets of wisdom are a better teacher of what not to do than the mental and physical pain of being raped, or is just a juvenile "I told you so" directed at someone who doesn't really need your bulls_h_1t at that particular moment?

It may or not fall under the heading of victim blaming, but it absolutely, 100% no doubt falls under the heading of totally unnecessary and pointless.

This. Again.


It's kind of amazing that this thread is 17 pages long.

This is not complicated, people!

[Brave New World]

Originally Posted by 2mares

I don't know how British courts conduct cases but here its more than an accusation. There are rape kits and questioning, DNA evidence, eye witnesses, etc. Women's pasts, irrelevant information, accusations are drug out in public court.
I remember being in a court room where there was some questioning about a older rape case as it often take months or years before the case in heard in court. They were grilling this poor girl on what the guy was wearing, trying to discredit her. The clothing questioning went on for about 45 minutes. She was in tears before they were through with her.
Not to say there are not false accusation as in any type of crime but the defendant gets to have his side of the story heard and is generally treated better than the claimant.

Britain was the first country to develop DNA fingerprinting evidence and we have rape kits, specialist offices and specisalist rape suites, however some women will make up stories after a man has had sex or there may not be DNA evidence merely accusations. Some women don't come forward until days or even weeks later and a woman's past is not the issue, the issue is that many of these cases should not have even reached the courts in the first place as there was insufficient evidence, and the police have every right to charge women making false allegations with perjury and perverting the course of justice.

2 men exonerated after 26 years when woman admits to false rape claim - USA Today

New York woman in false rape case says she never said she was raped | Daily Mail Online

College girl charged for false rape claim on campus - New York Post