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90% of the people responding to this thread didn't read the article. Which isn't a surprise.
Most Americans have the ethical reasoning of an abused child. A self-perpetuating cycle of punishment is all we've ever known... it's how our world works. So naturally most people who've grown up in a system like that see punishment as the singular solution to every problem under the sun (well unless of course the problem can be solved by giving more money to the wealthy. We dutiful peasants have bottomless sympathy for the wealthy).
I do think that somebody earlier in the thread made a good point. Through the suffering of two world wars (and already having a more unified national identity), Western European countries developed a sense that they were all in this together, and should help each other. I think the U.S. learned that mentality to a lesser extent after WWII, and it shows in the relative prosperity and economic stability of the Post-WII era. But starting with the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War, political divisions started to overtake that sense of shared national identity. Through the 70's and 80's, at least we had a common enemy to rally against (the Soviet Union). But once we lost that, our tribes began to see each other as the 'common enemy'. And here we are.
I have been fascinated with America, and it's people all my life. At the same time I have been puzzled by many attitudes, and the seeming despising of so called failures in society. The one's who don't 'lift themselves up by their bootstraps', and the like.
With the election of Donald Trump, this underlying cruelty has manifested itself, and is on display all the time in this forum. Whether it's illegals, different racial groups, UHC, politics in general, the educated sneering at the uneducated, and a more inward looking population. A seeming cheering at Trump's wrecking ball type of politics. It is endlessly interesting to me, as an outsider looking in, but difficult to understand.
I came across an online article which for me, helped a little in understanding the American mentality. The writer of it says America was a promised land - for the despised, loathed and hated. Folks not given an ounce of respect, dignity, or even belonging in their societies of origin.
It was built on hate. First the British and French settlers hating the Native Americans, and then the next wave of settlers too. Cruelty was established as a way of life. Each new tribe that came to this promised land, brought the burden of being despised and oppressed with them. They were finally above someone else in a social hierarchy. They were not at the bottom anymore. The basis of a dog eat dog, survival of the fittest mentality was formed, which continues today. Today's servant wants to be tomorrow's master. Today's peasant, wants to be tomorrow's landlord. Today's victim aspires to be tomorrow's oppressor.
An attitude of cruelty was formed. Punching down, not lifting up. It's all that Americans expect from each other, and give to each other. A perverse idea of virtue, that by punishing people, we can better them. It is all that Americans expect from each other, and give to each other.
This article made me think, and ponder about this great country, and why it does, what it does. How did the 'Promised Land' get to where it is today? Led by a sociopathic, hateful man, who can do no wrong to a large part of the population. Do Americans on this forum agree with what he has to say, or think he's wrong?
This is a remarkably thoughtful post, but to tell the truth it would fare better under Great Debates. I didn't even bother to read the responses to this in Politics forum, as most of the pretzel logic coming from the Trump cult has been repeated a thousand times. You have to understand that critical thinking and rationality infuriates them; but I am guessing you knew that when you made the post.
I suppose my main response to this article is that the behavior they are describing is surely not unique to America. This happens everywhere, all over the world, and it is an essential part of human nature. When you scratch through the thin veneer of civilization, you will find that human beings are still tribal, competitive creatures. The idea that we have somehow evolved beyond that is simply a fantasy. All it takes is a look at any history book to get some understanding of the brutal and primitive nature of man, as evidenced by many cruel wars that have been waged, even through the 20th century.
So he's not "wrong" unless he is somehow suggesting that this behavior is uniquely American. This is NOT to say that there has been no progress; that the world is not a more pleasant place to exist than it was in the Middle Ages for example. Also not to say that some countries or societies have been more successful than others in protecting human rights and establishing modern systems of justice. Point is that we have a long, long way to go - as evidenced by the resurgence of fascism in America as well as in Europe.
Last edited by GearHeadDave; 06-25-2018 at 05:12 AM..
I don’t remember an American President having people burned alive in cages so he could get a divorce and marry his new loves. Are you as an “Englishman” trying to criticize our history?
No. I am asking your opinion on the linked article, and whether you agree or disagree with what it says. As a foreigner, my knowledge of American history is sketchy.
I know the basics of course about things like the Civil War, and when it was fought. I know a little about Ellis Island, and the immigrants who passed through it. I have visited there, and looked down on that massive hall, and seen photos there.
I know a little about the push west after the Civil War, and some names of famous people of that era. Some knowledge of the Second World War, and it's aftermath, leading on to the Vietnam war, and civil rights protests. The nearer we get to the present, the more I know.......
I remember seeing a Tom Cruise movie 25 years ago called 'Far and Away' which was interesting. It was about a young Irishman coming to NYC in the 19th Century, and what happened to him, eventually leading to him staking out some land in the West. The interesting part of the movie, was how he received help from Irish American politicians, in exchange for his vote.
The linked article I sent in my first post, just got me thinking, and I decided to ask Americans what they think about what it had to say.
You lost me on the burning of wives so someone could get a divorce, and marry his new loves. With loves, I thought maybe you meant Henry VIII? He didn't have his wives burned, but two were beheaded. Plus if you're burned alive, there is no need for a divorce......
It is all about the philosophy of individualism. We are a nation born from the notion that individuals have a right to decide how they want to live their life, not government and not religion and not the neighbor. The flip side of that very freeing right is that indivuals then have to live with the consequences of the decisions they have made.
Part of believing in individualism means Americans don’t want to be told they have to pay for someone else, it should be their choice whether they give away their hard won money to someone else That is where that paradox between resisting things like government provided universal health and being the nation with, by far, the highest individual private donation percentage comes from. (Something everyone forgets when talking about how “cruel” Americans are.) We are in reality a very generous people, we just want to have the right to decide who we are generous to.
Give me a break, Mr. Englishman, from the land with an overabundance of upper crust schools for young children of certain families. For the record, the United States is the only nation on Earth that practices true free universial public education. It is all part of our philosophy that everyone should have equal opportunities - including the kid with an IQ of 10 or who disrupts the education of every other kid in the school. The United States still has the greatest shift in the world between generational socioeconomic status - both up and down - of any nation where it has been studied. We really do buy into the notion that you can be anything you want, if you are willing to work hard enough. The not so pleasant flip side to that way of thinking, if you consider it logically, means we think if you have made nothing of yourself you must not have been willing to work hard enough.
We aren’t cruel, we just cling to the notion that desitny and fate can be changed by the individual, if they chose to fight that battle. Many of our current conflicts are because we are in the process of losing that self determination mindset and those who think it is a large part of what has made America great are trying to stop it.
Your article has it right in that we came from the despised but it has it wrong why we opporate the way we do. We don’t want to knock others down, we just want to succeed. If they can succeed too, great, but if they don’t, that’s on them.
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You can only support so many bipolar, disabled people on section 8 and social security before the whole system bankrupts and implodes. Talk all you want about cruelty, what we need is a better understanding of evolutionary psychology and some discipline and tough love to get people so they don't need to have emotional support animals to prevent nervous breakdowns. The fact we have so many people that require emotional support animals tells me we are a society in decay where people are coddled/spoiled/pampered too much.
Sorry but nature is cruel and being thrown to the wolves is the best way to develop character and get over anxiety disorders... not hiding in one's apartment with their service dog afraid to do anything. Also, not everyone was designed to live... throughout the entire million years of evolution people died, sometimes unjustly. That doesn't make it right, and it's good we are trying to help people in a time of need, but it's one thing to help people temporarily and it's quite another to pay for them to live off the government for 10-20 years. We simply cannot afford that. People need to pull their bleeping weight in society.
The strong are supposed to get ahead... that's how nature works. Religion/government was created to regulate our animal nature so we aren't quite so cruel to each other.
EnglishDave: Thanks for the post. As you've seen in this thread, America has a large contingent of people who are incapable of self-reflection or a critique of the US that might be counter to their world view.
While I don't agree 100% with the article it does have some valid observations. I would like to add a clip from the late Christopher Hitchens...the hyper smart Brit who adopted the U.S. as his home. The interview of Hitchens was during the rise of the Tea Party (circa 2010) and has some very relevant observations which relate to your question:
A brief synopsis of his comments: The distrust of the government and a reluctance of allowing the state intervene to help people has deep roots:
-A legacy of Calvinism handed down from the frontier days. And really, we aren't that far removed from our frontier days. In the broad sweep of human history....150 years is a drop in the bucket.
-A belief that life should be risky and if you fall on hard times you did something wrong.
That was food for thought. Christopher Hitchens was an interesting commentator, and is missed. He was right. 150 years is not a long time in human history at all. We watch movies set in that time, and it all seems so distant. It's not at all really.
Troll article with a troll title to it. Not worth a read, anymore than that "white people are cowards" crap the left was slinging last week. Calling America "most uniquely cruel" is not how you get a dialog going, it's how you start a **** flinging contest.
I have been fascinated with America, and it's people all my life. At the same time I have been puzzled by many attitudes, and the seeming despising of so called failures in society. The one's who don't 'lift themselves up by their bootstraps', and the like.
With the election of Donald Trump, this underlying cruelty has manifested itself, and is on display all the time in this forum. Whether it's illegals, different racial groups, UHC, politics in general, the educated sneering at the uneducated, and a more inward looking population. A seeming cheering at Trump's wrecking ball type of politics. It is endlessly interesting to me, as an outsider looking in, but difficult to understand.
I came across an online article which for me, helped a little in understanding the American mentality. The writer of it says America was a promised land - for the despised, loathed and hated. Folks not given an ounce of respect, dignity, or even belonging in their societies of origin.
It was built on hate. First the British and French settlers hating the Native Americans, and then the next wave of settlers too. Cruelty was established as a way of life. Each new tribe that came to this promised land, brought the burden of being despised and oppressed with them. They were finally above someone else in a social hierarchy. They were not at the bottom anymore. The basis of a dog eat dog, survival of the fittest mentality was formed, which continues today. Today's servant wants to be tomorrow's master. Today's peasant, wants to be tomorrow's landlord. Today's victim aspires to be tomorrow's oppressor.
An attitude of cruelty was formed. Punching down, not lifting up. It's all that Americans expect from each other, and give to each other. A perverse idea of virtue, that by punishing people, we can better them. It is all that Americans expect from each other, and give to each other.
This article made me think, and ponder about this great country, and why it does, what it does. How did the 'Promised Land' get to where it is today? Led by a sociopathic, hateful man, who can do no wrong to a large part of the population. Do Americans on this forum agree with what he has to say, or think he's wrong?
Cool, now do you wanna explain two world wars to us cruel Americans?
As far as the article goes: Does the author believe that all these angry lowlifes who came to America aren't redeemable? I am alternately between a 3rd and 7th generation American. Do I carry the anger and hate of my forbears?
The only thing that I am angry about right now is this insipid article.
Last edited by Mr. Joshua; 06-25-2018 at 05:48 AM..
I am not lecturing you on cruelty. I am asking your opinion on a link. Is there any truth in it, or do you think no, there isn't?
The answer is no. America is not particularly cruel compared to most countries. There has certainly been a huge amount of cruelty in various places throughout history.
Some people on the far left might think that America is the most uniquely cruel country. But that is not the opinion of the vast majority of Americans.
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