Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You probably think all blacks are lazy and criminals because, you know, they’re black. It kills me how people will claim to be open and tolerant except for those groups they dislike, then they’re all lazy and stupid because they belong to that group.
I think the black individual has a harder fight for true individualism than any other demographic. The Democrat party relentlessly markets the virtues of the welfare state at blacks, more so than any other race demographic, and the "authentically black" culture puts a much higher expectation on the individual to accept the Democrat message. There's a much higher implicit threat of tribal exile on blacks than there is on an individual of any other race. That's a powerful thing, and absolutely unfortunate and sad
I don't buy into group identity, but I do understand how collectives amass and hold power over individuals. Black individuals start with a seriously huge deck stacked against them where proper individualism is concerned, and the two collectives arrayed against them are really serious and really powerful.
I would assume the internet would be very helpful with keeping track of people. There are flaws in any solution, but I think there could be some official or unofficial databases that can be accessed anywhere. As mentioned earlier, eBay ratings come to mind...take that general idea and tweak it however necessary.
Also appreciate that you took the time to listen. My mindset has always been that everyone's life is their own, I don't want to run other people's lives, and I don't want my life run by someone else, so what's the least amount of that necessary?
The little section at 12:00 of this video was really influential for me personally. I still think it's one of the best summaries of what government is at its core. One of those "Ahh I never thought of it that way..." moments.
So when I came across the concept of a stateless society, heard the moral argument for it, agreed with it, but noticed that it clashed with the idea of taxation at all.....I was really conflicted, but I just said "alright, let's research this" and just constantly watched debates and videos, listened to podcasts, etc. and heard a ton of really interesting ideas that made me go...hmmm this could actually work...
Compare that to most people's attitude when presented with the ideas... "That's so crazy it's not even worth responding to", "Well what if...(insert non-stop hypotheticals until you find one that isn't easily answered)... see, told you so. I win."
These people don't have any honest interest in how it could work. They're dead set on dismissing it so they don't have to reexamine their own views.
That was great and I do love Walter Williams. I have always felt that my life is my own and never wanted to bother other people with my problems or be bothered by theirs. What right do I (or they) have to do that?
Wow did this thread fill up since yesterday. In reading through golgi's and NY_refugee's points the common thread is the inability to believe or trust that today's people can manage such a system because corruption is inherent in the current one. How can you trust people to adhere to the NAP or to have personal responsibility which ancap requires you to have in spades? Therefore it is not worth the attempt.
I also don't agree that communism is individualism, it is most certainly a collective. But so is conservatism and the long held belief that conservatism is also the ultimate patriotism. This is a collective of sorts that requires people to adhere as a group to the idea. I can see this and have been guilty of it when the "other" side starts down a path of disrespect. No one likes being disrespected and the party system breeds it like rabbits.
Thanks for your posts as I always appreciate learning new information.
Because conservatives and Democrats have been bought and paid to serve donors and special interest groups. Libertarians make too much sense with regards to personal liberty, criminal justice reforms, marijuana, privacy, the list is endless. Extreme libertarians can go too far like extreme left and right though. I find Rand Paul is a perfect mix of libertarian/conservative
I love this kind of discussion. Yes, there are different types of libertarians, but the general theme is of small government. There is no person, who would claim to be both a libertarian and a big government Democrat supporter.
The Democrat Party is the arch enemy of the libertarian movement.
I'd say conservatives are closer to being libertarian than progressives for the reasons you mentioned, but I also think conservatives and progressives are more fundamentally similar to each other than to libertarians...more similar where it really counts, from a libertarian perspective.
What I mean is that the heart of libertarianism is the non-aggression principle and property rights, and puts individual rights above the will of the group. It's fundamentally against authoritarianism and collectivism.
Progressives and conservatives are both authoritarian collectivists, but in different ways. The debate is over WHAT the state should force people to fund, which is a very different mindset than "it's wrong to force people to fund something just because you think it's important".
I really hate, and I mean HATE, to add any credibility to golgi1's argument, but I don't completely agree with this. I am a liberal because I want to make sure the weak, the sick, and the poor are looked after, and I tend to support policies that ensure that. Most conservatives do not feel this way, or at least they don't seem willing to take actions in that direction. So...to me, a conservative stance combines the worst of all worlds: authoritarianism and little to no safety net for those at the bottom of the heap.
I know, I know...ends and means, and all of that, I get it.
In any case, I feel more comfortable with your positions, at least in theory, than those of the typical conservative, in spite of the fact that liberals and conservatives are both statists, and the above is why. I speak only for myself, of course, and I am sure my feelings are not shared by all liberals, and may not be shared by any libertarian.
Your proof that a statist liberal who honestly cares for others is possible. You're thinking with your heart instead of your head though...and that's our de facto complaint with your side. In daily life this mindset would make you a wonderful asset to anyone who comes across your path. The problem is you must use preemptive force to achieve your goals on a larger scale, obviously, which makes you the antithesis of those same ideals to us 100% libertarians.
I don't know how to break this particular mindset within statism. I've always been thought of as cold/detached. I prefer to think of myself as cautious, calculating and completely dedicated to free will/self-determination and that gives off the appearance of coldness/detachment.
It's easier for me to respect the means process being this way while not putting an emphasis on the ends.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if some if may be a matter of how a person is just sort of...hardwired, for the lack of a better word. I value cool logic, but I also tend to empathize with others, particularly those I see as less able to protect themselves than I am. I see your point about force, and I understand it, yet I do concern myself with the ends, as you have said.
A lot has been said, regarding statism, about cognitive dissonance, and believe me, I am no stranger to that uncomfortable feeling. Make an argument, and unless it's rooted in pure meanness, I will probably find something of value in it. Sometimes I think this is a good quality. It generally means that I am able to respect viewpoints that differ from my own, and I wouldn't want to change that about myself. On the other hand, it also means that absolutes are difficult for me to accept, with one exception: I value lives more than I value property. I'm not sure I would want to change that, either, but it means that I am sort of a political orphan, in some ways. The abortion debate literally gives me a headache.
I really am not being intentionally disagreeable here, although I suspect it may seem otherwise. You all have given me a look into your own thinking, it only seems reasonable to me that I do the same.
I'd say conservatives are closer to being libertarian than progressives for the reasons you mentioned, but I also think conservatives and progressives are more fundamentally similar to each other than to libertarians...more similar where it really counts, from a libertarian perspective.
What I mean is that the heart of libertarianism is the non-aggression principle and property rights, and puts individual rights above the will of the group. It's fundamentally against authoritarianism and collectivism.
Progressives and conservatives are both authoritarian collectivists, but in different ways. The debate is over WHAT the state should force people to fund, which is a very different mindset than "it's wrong to force people to fund something just because you think it's important".
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I think that you have made some valid points, but I would say, as a libertarian minded Republican, advocating for a smaller government is central to my thought. I do not believe it the role of the federal government is to fund anything related to behavior and thus promote returning mos t of what the federal government has taken on back to the states.
I agree, some conservatives can be collectivist and even authoritarian, especially with regards to the fundamentalists. As a secular libertarian conservative, I reject that aspect of the movement, but still understand that having those elements within our coalition is a better position to be in than being part of the left.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if some if may be a matter of how a person is just sort of...hardwired, for the lack of a better word. I value cool logic, but I also tend to empathize with others, particularly those I see as less able to protect themselves than I am. I see your point about force, and I understand it, yet I do concern myself with the ends, as you have said.
You just have to redirect your empathy. Seeing a wrong and immediately wanting to fix it is natural but if it ends up causing more harm than good in the long run the approach isn't working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64
A lot has been said, regarding statism, about cognitive dissonance, and believe me, I am no stranger to that uncomfortable feeling. Make an argument, and unless it's rooted in pure meanness, I will probably find something of value in it. Sometimes I think this is a good quality. It generally means that I am able to respect viewpoints that differ from my own, and I wouldn't want to change that about myself. On the other hand, it also means that absolutes are difficult for me to accept, with one exception: I value lives more than I value property. I'm not sure I would want to change that, either, but it means that I am sort of a political orphan, in some ways. The abortion debate literally gives me a headache.
I really am not being intentionally disagreeable here, although I suspect it may seem otherwise. You all have given me a look into your own thinking, it only seems reasonable to me that I do the same.
You aren't being intentionally disagreeable. I understand your POV. Remember, all anarchists were once statists.
The only thing I'd add is that we view personal property as an extension of ourselves...our life.
My mind and body, working in conjunction, cut down a tree and I make a chair out of it. Doesn't matter if I'm going to use it, give it away, or sell it...that chair is part of me. My time, my labor, my mind & body created this product.
If someone comes along and destroys it or steals it they've robbed me of the fruits of my mental and physical labor. Private property is therefore an extension of my life.
This is a troll thread. Libertarians and leftists getting together to troll conservatives in to justifying their existence. Two sets of extremes looking to wipe out any middle ground. If conservatives sometimes have trouble discussing things with libertarians it's because they have some sympathies with the libertarian ideology but find them to be absolutists with closed minds and no ability to understand consequences. Sometimes they are indistinguishable from anarchists. The end result of anarchy is government run by a new set of thugs so that's pretty much a non starter.
I once thought I was libertarian, then I thought I was conservative with libertarian leanings, then libertarians convinced me they were crazy and although I still support some parts of the ideology in theory I've basically lost most of my respect for the intellect of it's supporters. I support limited government but not no government, and I do not claim to support no government so there are no logical inconsistencies there. Libertarians have the luxury of knowing their ideology will never be enacted in a civilized society so they do not have the burden of finding something that is actually workable, they only have to hold something up as an impossible ideal that they can disparage people for not supporting with enough absolutism.
I am a Conservative Republican with some liberal-leaning Democratic views. To answer rebeldor's question, be it online or in person, I don't normally interact with Libertarian. That is because I won't know they are unless they make it known they are libertarian.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
