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....the change since the 60's is not endemic to blacks. What is clear is that prior to the 60's the rate for blacks was already 7 times what it was for whites. Maybe the change in gender roles in the US...with women entering the workforce in record numbers and less of the need for males as providers is what happened post 60's.
So you're guessing and don't have anything to back it up. Business as usual. Women are working, men are working, yet welfare rises.
The combined benefits of the welfare system discourage both work and marriage which pushes people into poverty. Paying benefits encourages dependency and that it is not fair to those who work hard to achieve an equivalent standard of living. Like the welfare programs or not the fact remains, over the past 30 years poverty rates have roughly stayed the same. These programs are not effective at lowering the number of people in poverty. AND the amount individuals receiving welfare, including medicaid, is growing. From 6.5k in 1990 to 16.5k in 2015.
Family 1, with $15,000 in income from wages, would receive benefits of $17,220 which when added to the income from wages would boost them to $32,220 in income plus benefits. Family 1 is boosted to $7,990 above the poverty threshold.
Family 2 has income from wages of $35,000 which is $20,000 higher than family 1 but loses $14,238 in benefits because they don’t qualify for SNAP or Housing Assistance. They do get an EITC payment which takes them to $37,982 in income plus benefits but this is only $5,762 higher than family 1 even though they make $20,000 more in wages. If a spouse in Family 1 is not working but has the ability to go to work and earn $20,000 a year in the end they would only come out ahead by $5,762 a year or the equivalent of $2.77 an hour. After payroll tax and income tax the difference is even less. The family could also lose other benefits such as Child Nutrition, Head Start, LIHEAP, Lifeline and state general welfare, which will put them further behind Family 2. The dramatic loss in benefits is a disincentive to work.
What was made up....which part? Did I make up that blacks were enslaved in the US? Did I make up the fact that when slavery ended blacks were POOR. Keep in mind that at THAT point in time, there were many single black households as many black males were missing from their families, having been sold off to other plantations, having been killed, having sought freedom earlier by escaping enslavement ect. Thus, our freedom started with higher rates of both poverty and female headed households. That is true of my own ancestors. I looked up my family history and in the 1870 census, the first after black were freed, there was no male head of the household listed, only an elderly female born in the 1700's and 30 year old women with 7 kids. That women was my ancestor. So enslavement rendered blacks poor and with more single parent homes as the aftermath of slavery. Racial abuse and discrimination continued long after slavery ended, with massive incarceration and discrimination aimed in particular at the black male....which impacted poverty rates because males are the traditional providers and impacted family units as males were separated from the family as a result of being locked up to work chain gang or to work the fields. So males not being in the home is a condition exacerbated by racial oppression to the degree that the rate for blacks has ALWAYS been higher than the rate for whites in this nation.
That is as far back as I can trace my lineage.....an 1870 census of households in Claiborne County Mississippi.
You made up the part about slavery being the cause for blacks being at the bottom of the totem pole.
Males not being home is because of welfare. Explain how whites are on welfare. Is that racism too? Explain how white southerners have a lower percentage of 2 parent families than those in the north and are more likely to be on welfare? Racism at work there?
Whitey isn't racist against Asians though but is racist against everyone else including white southerners.
Last edited by Loveshiscountry; 07-11-2018 at 07:20 AM..
I don't know where you get the ideal that black parents have ever taught their children that they cannot succeed. That is NOT true. We were told that we COULD succeed, despite racism, but that we had to work twice as hard as they did to get the same thing that they got. Now, if you are telling your kids that you can be anything they want to be.....but you are in poverty....that is a mixed message because kids are not stupid. If it were true then why did the parents choose poverty if they could be anything they wanted? Often times what you see around you is your biggest template for what you can and will become in life.
This is not rocket science. Unless a race is innately superior to black people......you would be in our SAME situation today had you experienced what we experienced when and where we experienced it. All your stories about how you immigrated to America and was poor and the like.....THAT IS NOT WHAT AFRICAN AMERICANS EXPERIENCED!!! That is not walking in the shoes of African Americans....nowhere near it. If you walked in our shoes.....your feet would hurt just like ours....unless you just think your feet are stronger and better.
Look it isn't rocket science. The majority of successful people were taught to be successful by someone else, normally starting with their parents. So your parents taught you to succeed. That obviously isn't the case in many or even most poor households and race isn't the factor. The one thing I never allowed from my kids was making excuses for failures.
The one that decided to a tech school was my favorite and biggest challenge. He constantly complained that others had advantages over him. Then it became my fault. I expected too much. He didn't like school, he didn't want to go to college, blah blah blah. EXCUSES....... I told him then dont go to college go to a tech school or do what I did, go in the military.
He chose tech school. He makes as much as his siblings who went to college. He succeeded. By the way I refused to pay for any of my children's college. Independence is something else that is learned.
In the job I had before I retired I was a boss. The number 1 thing that I observed in people who failed? Excuses. They all have an excuse and it's never their fault.
Is it a child's fault that they are born poor or black or black and poor? NO. Nor is it a valid excuse to destroy their own lives.
I also grew up dirt poor. We were poor farmers and our father was disabled in an accident. We were absolutely the poorest kids in the school. I knew I didn't want that for my future. I graduated H.S and joined the military. Saved every dime I could. Started investing at 21. I knew from a life of hard work that short cuts never deliver. I paid attention to successful people. I watched and learned. I didnt make excuses that my family was poor. They didn't give me anything. I couldn't go to college because my parents sucked.
It is my life, not theirs or anyone elses. it's my job to make my life work.
It isn't rocket science to succeed. It is hard work, it is sacrifice, it is painful.
What you see around you can and should motivate you. If it sucks then it should motivate you to do something else. Move, get out of there. I did it and If I can anyone can. I came from a white trash poor family. Neighbors dropping off boxes of used clothes. Soap!!!! like we were dirty scum bags. They should have dropped off tooth paste. WE never had that. Parents always had cigarettes and booze, and 3 or 4 dogs that were worthless. 6 kids. 3 out of 6 succeeded. 1 married into success. 1 dead from drugs. 1 is just a bum. My younger siblings had me. The older siblings went their own way..
I dont pretend to know what it's like to grow up black, be black or inner city. I do know intimately what it's like to be poor. To be the outcast. to be called the loser.
We couldn't walk into a store without being followed to make sure we didn't steal anything. Why because the bum and the drug addict were thieves. Therefore the rest of us were thieves. Life is what we make it or accept.
Now be honest. Those kids in poverty, their parents at least not most, aren't teaching their kids that they can be anything. They are being taught excuses. They are being taught to make more bad decisions. Welfare queens dropping kids by different fathers are not teaching success. I dont care what the race is, a welfare queen with 5 kids and 5 different dads doesn't teach strong values or paths to success.
You misunderstand me. I said we should not dwell on the past. I did not say we forget about it or not learn from it.
The problem with dwelling on the past as the black community seem to be doing to this day is it is completely nonproductive. What's done is done. No one can change the past. But we can learn from it and make the necessary corrections moving forward.
Also, forgive me for not being able to compose my words as rosey as you can. I'm a simple man and I speak/write in plain language.
We need to deal with problems direction, not dream about the possible solutions. "Living for the moment" may get you an A for your creative writing class, but it does little to impress anyone in the real professional world.
Will note that I agree with many of your comments and Indentured Servant, but will note that both he and yourself and other posters who are speaking of "black people" are constantly speaking of us in a negative/inferior way - even Indentured Servant and I actually do enjoy his posts.
Black American poverty rates were over 70% in the 1950s. Today poverty rates for our demographic is 25%.
I think its rather ridiculous for Americans in general and especially black people to speak of us as if that trajectory on poverty has not been a HUGE goal and success on the part of our recent ancestors/relatives and ourselves.
The idea that we are a problem to solve is us continuously viewing ourselves as inferior.
IMO "the black community" needs to realize we actually ARE successful. Look at all we have done and all we have achieved!
Us taking on the idea that we are always a problem to be solved is us buying into our own inferiority. We have always gotten better on all fronts. We should not be comparing ourselves to the white population. We should compare ourselves to our ancestors and try to out-do our ancestors.
In our demographic over the past 50 years - education has increased, crime has decreased, income has increased. Even wealth increased but then stalls or declines due to recessions/economic conditions that are out of our control and due to us having VERY recent access to opportunities, it makes sense that these economic conditions would impact our demographic more than others - we are on a more precarious position in regards to economic factors because our demographic was not allowed to acquire higher incomes, wealth, or a high degree of education really until the 1980s.
This whole conversation, especially from the self proclaimed black posters is sad to me.
It is sad because too many of us focus on white people and what they have.
Note, I think it is VERY important to look at the past - but we need to look at our particular past as a demographic - learn what our true culture is (it is what made us have the opportunities that we have today) - embrace our past and what our ancestors achieved for us - embrace the opportunities we have and quit focusing on white people and for me, to not even engage those who speak of us in negative terms. Too many of us pick up those negative terms ourselves (which is what I see occurring in this thread with all these 'black people need to _____' comments).
The main thing we need to do is quit defining our lives and our "success" from a white patriarchal lens. Look at statistics of our own group only, compare ourselves to "us" 10 years ago and try to out do "us."
Because of our history racial bias is something we will always have to deal with. A large amount of white and other non-black people do not, cannot and will not seek to or actually understand what that means for us. It is not important that they do. Leave them in their ignorance and get on with your life and look back at our beautiful culture and embrace that instead of trying to be "successful" by the white patriarch's definition. A large amount of them have "problems" that are way worse than ours as a demographic (especially from a psychological perspective) so it makes no sense to even compare ourselves to them.
Look it isn't rocket science. The majority of successful people were taught to be successful by someone else, normally starting with their parents. So your parents taught you to succeed. That obviously isn't the case in many or even most poor households and race isn't the factor. The one thing I never allowed from my kids was making excuses for failures.
The one that decided to a tech school was my favorite and biggest challenge. He constantly complained that others had advantages over him. Then it became my fault. I expected too much. He didn't like school, he didn't want to go to college, blah blah blah. EXCUSES....... I told him then dont go to college go to a tech school or do what I did, go in the military.
He chose tech school. He makes as much as his siblings who went to college. He succeeded. By the way I refused to pay for any of my children's college. Independence is something else that is learned.
In the job I had before I retired I was a boss. The number 1 thing that I observed in people who failed? Excuses. They all have an excuse and it's never their fault.
Is it a child's fault that they are born poor or black or black and poor? NO. Nor is it a valid excuse to destroy their own lives.
I also grew up dirt poor. We were poor farmers and our father was disabled in an accident. We were absolutely the poorest kids in the school. I knew I didn't want that for my future. I graduated H.S and joined the military. Saved every dime I could. Started investing at 21. I knew from a life of hard work that short cuts never deliver. I paid attention to successful people. I watched and learned. I didnt make excuses that my family was poor. They didn't give me anything. I couldn't go to college because my parents sucked.
It is my life, not theirs or anyone elses. it's my job to make my life work.
It isn't rocket science to succeed. It is hard work, it is sacrifice, it is painful.
What you see around you can and should motivate you. If it sucks then it should motivate you to do something else. Move, get out of there. I did it and If I can anyone can. I came from a white trash poor family. Neighbors dropping off boxes of used clothes. Soap!!!! like we were dirty scum bags. They should have dropped off tooth paste. WE never had that. Parents always had cigarettes and booze, and 3 or 4 dogs that were worthless. 6 kids. 3 out of 6 succeeded. 1 married into success. 1 dead from drugs. 1 is just a bum. My younger siblings had me. The older siblings went their own way..
I dont pretend to know what it's like to grow up black, be black or inner city. I do know intimately what it's like to be poor. To be the outcast. to be called the loser.
We couldn't walk into a store without being followed to make sure we didn't steal anything. Why because the bum and the drug addict were thieves. Therefore the rest of us were thieves. Life is what we make it or accept.
Now be honest. Those kids in poverty, their parents at least not most, aren't teaching their kids that they can be anything. They are being taught excuses. They are being taught to make more bad decisions. Welfare queens dropping kids by different fathers are not teaching success. I dont care what the race is, a welfare queen with 5 kids and 5 different dads doesn't teach strong values or paths to success.
This is one formula to being successful.
We use a different formula. You know what our formula to success is? Family and community support. We embrace success instead of shying from it.
When my husband who came from poor white trash background graduated with his associates degree, my entire side of the family went to his ceremony. My parents put aside their disagreement with us (we are a gay couple) and threw a feast. On his side only 2 aunts showed up briefly. When he got his BA, again everyone on my side went to his ceremony. My sister's family of 5 drove for 5 hours and stayed at a hotel over night. Not a single person from his family came.
When he got his first professional job with a professional salary, we celebrated again. My parents always celebrate when someone in the family gets a good job or promotion.
It doesn't end there. We are a very tight knit southeast Asian American community around here. We would have regular meetups and whatnot. There my parents and other parents would share their children's successes.
Again, we encourage and celebrate success among our people.
We just bought another house together. My family used this occasion to throw another feast. His family never came to visit our new home.
See the pattern? His poor white trash family seems to shun success. My family on the other hand love, encourage, and celebrate success. We have a very strong family bond. We look for every excuse to have a family get together.
This is why it pains me to see so many people not see the value in building a strong family cohesion. It pains me even more to see arguments that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood. That's the definition of shooting yourself in the foot.
Will note that I agree with many of your comments and Indentured Servant, but will note that both he and yourself and other posters who are speaking of "black people" are constantly speaking of us in a negative/inferior way - even Indentured Servant and I actually do enjoy his posts.
Black American poverty rates were over 70% in the 1950s. Today poverty rates for our demographic is 25%.
I think its rather ridiculous for Americans in general and especially black people to speak of us as if that trajectory on poverty has not been a HUGE goal and success on the part of our recent ancestors/relatives and ourselves.
The idea that we are a problem to solve is us continuously viewing ourselves as inferior.
IMO "the black community" needs to realize we actually ARE successful. Look at all we have done and all we have achieved!
Us taking on the idea that we are always a problem to be solved is us buying into our own inferiority. We have always gotten better on all fronts. We should not be comparing ourselves to the white population. We should compare ourselves to our ancestors and try to out-do our ancestors.
In our demographic over the past 50 years - education has increased, crime has decreased, income has increased. Even wealth increased but then stalls or declines due to recessions/economic conditions that are out of our control and due to us having VERY recent access to opportunities, it makes sense that these economic conditions would impact our demographic more than others - we are on a more precarious position in regards to economic factors because our demographic was not allowed to acquire higher incomes, wealth, or a high degree of education really until the 1980s.
This whole conversation, especially from the self proclaimed black posters is sad to me.
It is sad because too many of us focus on white people and what they have.
Note, I think it is VERY important to look at the past - but we need to look at our particular past as a demographic - learn what our true culture is (it is what made us have the opportunities that we have today) - embrace our past and what our ancestors achieved for us - embrace the opportunities we have and quit focusing on white people and for me, to not even engage those who speak of us in negative terms. Too many of us pick up those negative terms ourselves (which is what I see occurring in this thread with all these 'black people need to _____' comments).
The main thing we need to do is quit defining our lives and our "success" from a white patriarchal lens. Look at statistics of our own group only, compare ourselves to "us" 10 years ago and try to out do "us."
Because of our history racial bias is something we will always have to deal with. A large amount of white and other non-black people do not, cannot and will not seek to or actually understand what that means for us. It is not important that they do. Leave them in their ignorance and get on with your life and look back at our beautiful culture and embrace that instead of trying to be "successful" by the white patriarch's definition. A large amount of them have "problems" that are way worse than ours as a demographic (especially from a psychological perspective) so it makes no sense to even compare ourselves to them.
I apologize.
How do you see the ever increasing rise in single motherhood in the black community as a positive thing?
We use a different formula. You know what our formula to success is? Family and community support. We embrace success instead of shying from it.
When my husband who came from poor white trash background graduated with his associates degree, my entire side of the family went to his ceremony. My parents put aside their disagreement with us (we are a gay couple) and threw a feast. On his side only 2 aunts showed up briefly. When he got his BA, again everyone on my side went to his ceremony. My sister's family of 5 drove for 5 hours and stayed at a hotel over night. Not a single person from his family came.
When he got his first professional job with a professional salary, we celebrated again. My parents always celebrate when someone in the family gets a good job or promotion.
It doesn't end there. We are a very tight knit southeast Asian American community around here. We would have regular meetups and whatnot. There my parents and other parents would share their children's successes.
Again, we encourage and celebrate success among our people.
We just bought another house together. My family used this occasion to throw another feast. His family never came to visit our new home.
See the pattern? His poor white trash family seems to shun success. My family on the other hand love, encourage, and celebrate success. We have a very strong family bond. We look for every excuse to have a family get together.
This is why it pains me to see so many people not see the value in building a strong family cohesion. It pains me even more to see arguments that there's nothing wrong with single motherhood. That's the definition of shooting yourself in the foot.
LOL I am married to a South East Asian and now live there and I know exactly what you are talking about. The SE Asians are tight, rock solid in their support of family. They are amazing. The funny thing is 1 daughter moved with us to live in my wife's native country and is succeeding there as well. Success is taught. Success isn't an accident of birth or a guarantee that comes with skin color.
Excuses will destroy success. they allow the back door to failure.
What does Chicago homicides over 60 years have to do with what I said about generalization.
Crime statistics in Chicago are insignificant to me period. I don't live in Chicago so am not your biased view of black Chicagoans based on murderers in Chicago lol.
St. Louis
Detroit
Baltimore
Memphis
New York City
Kansas City
Cleveland
Milwaukee
Oakland
Washington DC
Newark
Philadelphia
New Orleans
Buffalo
and on and on and on
Can you fathom how many crimes have been committed in these cities over the last 60 years to the present day if you count all the homicides, rapes, assaults, burglaries and thefts? It will make your head spin to think about it.
How do you see the ever increasing rise in single motherhood in the black community as a positive thing?
See post below.
ETA: Also, I'll further note that as I noted below black people are doing well socio-economically even as single mother rates increased. Contrary to what you and others like to believe from the masses who seek to place us as a "problem" actual hard facts and data show this to be the case - that we have gotten better on all fronts since the 1970s in particular.
The idea that single mothering is detrimental only to us, as Indentured Servant mentioned, is akin to believing that we are inherently inferior. Every other demographic in America and a large amount of Western Europe has had single mother rates increase (in Europe many are near or higher than black Americans) yet there has been no decrease in educational achievement, crime rates are lower, black people actually suffer from less psychological illnesses and addiction issues than whites in America, etc.
Believing this is a direct cause of some ill is weird considering the facts do not support it. So-called "at-risk" studies show a risk, not reality. I am a child who grew up during the crack epidemic and I remember the so-called "crack babies" who were going to be a detriment to black America. Studies back then showed how "at-risk" all black people were due to all the crack babies born back then. Reality panned out that crack babies have not been detrimental to black America and that they did well in life compared to other American children depending on their family environment (supportive or non-supportive). Most studies done on black people IMO have a purpose of pushing an inferiority narrative for us as a people. We should not believe these studies or take them as facts - they are predictions or assumptions, not facts.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 07-11-2018 at 09:04 AM..
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