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Listen, a good friend of mine trained the SWAT officers where I live. I have many current and retired friends in the RCMP, and have been at depot more than once on official business. I'm anything but anti-cop.
But, the cowboy mentality I see in the USA, the lack of training on de-escalation, and the plain fact that subjects are shot more in the USA than anywhere else in the world clearly shows that something is wrong. Clearly, and you can't deny that. You can try and excuse it, but you can't deny it.
I have little comfort of being stopped in the USA and not wonder what hair-triggered person is on the other side of that badge, and I'm white. I have no confidence of whether I will be cuffed and stuffed, tased or even shot if I don't react exactly how that person feels he's telling me, even though I have a bad shoulder and knee. That is a horrible situation I never thought I would feel. But there is too much shooting by police of civilians.
Several factors in play here.
You have 10% of the US population (roughly) and the most salacious stories of course make the news.
Canada has less dense population centers.
The US has more gun violence so US cops would rightfully be more leary of interactions in bad areas than Canadian police.
Imagine if we compared the US to Canada excluding the major population centers?
For example, Illinois excluding the Chicago metro has about the same gun violence rate as Canada. The Chicago-Metro gun violence rate is something like 8x higher than the rest of the state. One would expect that they also have a lot higher incidence of violent interactions with people they pull over too.
Good discussion, complex issue but interesting to note that rural parts of the US pretty much seem to be similar to Canada in many of these metrics but are skewed by intense population clusters.
Lastly Mr. Lilly White (like myself), I lived in Chicago so let me explain the situation to you. The nice parts of Chicago have problems no different than what you are used to. You'd be fine. Cops wouldn't pull you over after a bistro visit in Lincoln Park with their guns drawn lmfao.
If they pulled you over on the south side for running a light, they'd suspect you're a junky and looking for a hit....or lost.
The vastly disproportional interactions happen in a tiny part of US geography that is densely populated, mostly minority (due to historical oppression) and is the concentration of murder, drugs, gangs and police wrongdoing.
You have 10% of the US population (roughly) and the most salacious stories of course make the news.
Sure, the population is less, but the RATE of police shootings of civilians is highest in the USA of any country that tracks this in the world. The RATE is irrespective of the total population.
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Canada has less dense population centers.
Toronto 10,750/sq mi
Vancouver 13,590/sq mi
Calgary 3,442/sq mi
Edmonton 3,074/sq mi
Dallas 3,944/sq mi
L.A. 7,544/sq mi
Miami 12,875/sq mi
Chicago 11,948/sq mi
Hardly less dense population centers, are they? In fact the major center are very comparable on both sides of the border.
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The US has more gun violence so US cops would rightfully be more leary of interactions in bad areas than Canadian police.
Yes it does. And refuses to put common sense gun laws into place. That's on the USA, and I fail to understand why licensing, training and safe storage laws are not a federal requirement, and I understand the 2A. I probably have more firearms than most here, but I don't want anyone going to a gun show and buy a gun without a background check, or going to the local pawn shop looking for a black powder handgun (legal to import into Canada), and pointed to a fellow standing outside of that shop who probably has "a connection". That was a personal experience of mine in Florida. One wonders how often that goes on.
Quote:
Imagine if we compared the US to Canada excluding the major population centers?
For example, Illinois excluding the Chicago metro has about the same gun violence rate as Canada. The Chicago-Metro gun violence rate is something like 8x higher than the rest of the state. One would expect that they also have a lot higher incidence of violent interactions with people they pull over too.
You may be right, but the fact remains, that in the urban areas, police shootings of subjects is far, far higher than in Canada. And I am not aware of any unarmed police shootings, and you know that they have become epidemic in the USA. I put that down to lack of de-escalation training and execution, and cowboy mentality that exists.
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Good discussion, complex issue but interesting to note that rural parts of the US pretty much seem to be similar to Canada in many of these metrics but are skewed by intense population clusters.
Lastly Mr. Lilly White (like myself), I lived in Chicago so let me explain the situation to you. The nice parts of Chicago have problems no different than what you are used to. You'd be fine. Cops wouldn't pull you over after a bistro visit in Lincoln Park with their guns drawn lmfao.
If they pulled you over on the south side for running a light, they'd suspect you're a junky and looking for a hit....or lost.
The vastly disproportional interactions happen in a tiny part of US geography that is densely populated, mostly minority (due to historical oppression) and is the concentration of murder, drugs, gangs and police wrongdoing.
I wish the USA started accepting that they DO have a problem with police shootings of subjects, and looked at real solutions rather than excusing every single instance. I see no desire to do that at this point.
Location: Free State of Florida, Support our police
5,859 posts, read 3,295,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad
Anti cop movement?
Listen, a good friend of mine trained the SWAT officers where I live. I have many current and retired friends in the RCMP, and have been at depot more than once on official business. I'm anything but anti-cop.
But, the cowboy mentality I see in the USA, the lack of training on de-escalation, and the plain fact that subjects are shot more in the USA than anywhere else in the world clearly shows that something is wrong. Clearly, and you can't deny that. You can try and excuse it, but you can't deny it.
I have little comfort of being stopped in the USA and not wonder what hair-triggered person is on the other side of that badge, and I'm white. I have no confidence of whether I will be cuffed and stuffed, tased or even shot if I don't react exactly how that person feels he's telling me, even though I have a bad shoulder and knee. That is a horrible situation I never thought I would feel. But there is too much shooting by police of civilians.
And it is a feeling I never have had in Canada. Ever. I have full confidence in our police forces, municipal and RCMP. I know the training they go through at depot, I've seen the amount of time and effort on de-escalation that is practised, and engrained in the recruits. It is a 26 week program, which is double of some of the US ones. Some municipal programs are even longer.
Police in Canada are well paid. Many in the USA are not, and that's maybe why standards are lower in the USA. A first year RCMP constable makes 53,144. Usually, within 36 months of service, that annual salary will have increased incrementally to $86,110. In Toronto $66,462 starting, to $94,949, in Vancouver, $75,165. after 3 years it goes $90,198. Other municipalities are similar. Edmonton starts at $67,414 and is at $100,619 after 5 years.
I found the following informative as to the situation in the USA.
Funny that you live in another country and chose to slam the police in ours. But hey you know a RCMP. Are you fregin kidding me???? You know nothing. You know what you read. Get in a dam patrol car in the United States and talk to me. You actually had the balls to talk about NYPD training. In the meantime I was in the NYPD for over 20 years. Please tell me what you know that I don't! Complete joke!!
Perhaps the USA has more violent criminals than those in Canada, the UK, etc?
I don't want any innocent bystander or police officer to be injured in any way just to avoid them taking a suspect's life.
Should a cop or civilian risk a survivable but life-altering injury such as becoming a paraplegic just for the opportunity to bring a bad guy into custody alive?
And as law enforcement, that suspicion is enough to detain you and figure out what's going on.
They can not detain you because they suspect you are doing something that is legal. Driving is legal, you need a license. You can't be pulled over, and detained because some cop says "he looks like someone driving".
They can not detain you because they suspect you are doing something that is legal.
You're right, however carrying a gun in Chicago isn't normally legal. Which is why they were detaining him. As it turned out, he wasn't carrying legally.
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Driving is legal, you need a license. You can't be pulled over, and detained because some cop says "he looks like someone driving".
Actually they can, especially if you and the vehicle match the description of a violent fugitive.
You're right, however carrying a gun in Chicago isn't normally legal.
Yes it is. What you meant to say is not that many get a license to carry which is irrelevant.
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Actually they can, especially if you and the vehicle match the description of a violent fugitive.
Which wasn't the case here. He was simply minding his own business walking down the street. When you have to add this additional aspects, you know you do not have a valid argument or you wouldn't have to add them.
Local media this morning is reporting CPD have taken more than 5100 illegally possessed guns off the streets, thus far this year.
And? This wasn't an illegal possessed gun so what argument are you trying to make?
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The nice parts of Chicago have problems no different than what you are used to. You'd be fine. Cops wouldn't pull you over after a bistro visit in Lincoln Park with their guns drawn lmfao.