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Old 07-21-2018, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
Reputation: 7950

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(Info comes from the book Comandante: Hugo Chavez's Venezuela by Brit journalist Rory Sparrow).


The problem with increasingly popular 'democratic socialism' is that it is still socialism. Case in point: Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was first elected president in 1998, with 56% of the vote. He promised to bring in a new era of socialism. He was a true believer who grew up poor, in a home with a dirt floor. His motto was "Fatherland, socialism, or death."


Chavez was a 'democratic socialist.' Everything that he accomplished was via election. He won re-election in 2006 by a record 63%. He won again in 2012 by 55%, despite deep discontent over an economy that lay in ruins. When he lost an election, such as his attempt to overturn term limits in 2007, he accepted the result and moved forward.


Along with the inevitable climbers, Chavez always kept some fellow true believers around. One was planning minister Jorge ("The Monk") Giordani. Giordani was studying electrical engineering in Italy when he had an epiphany. His schematic diagrams could be married to socialism to create a grand plan for humanity. At a meeting, the oil minister joked about Giordani's big tube of rolled up blueprints: "Is that your bazooka to kill us all, Jorge?" But Jorge always kept all-important access to Chavez.


Another was Raphael Castellanos, a bookstore owner whose Caracas apartment was lined stem to stern with piles of books. When Chavez needed a citation, whether from the Bible, Bolivar, Marx, or Plato, Raphael would provide it. This was useful, since Chavez rivaled Castro in oratorical long-windedness. Raphael's motto was "utopia is realizable."


But it proved not to be so realizable. By 2012, the great Venezuelan diaspora had already begun. It is estimated that 2 million have left since. There is one overwhelming reason: a failed economy. I don't wish to make this post too long, but I'll give some examples below of why and how socialism didn't work for Venezuela.
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:42 PM
 
9,622 posts, read 5,939,901 times
Reputation: 6540
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
(Info comes from the book Comandante: Hugo Chavez's Venezuela by Brit journalist Rory Sparrow).


The problem with increasingly popular 'democratic socialism' is that it is still socialism. Case in point: Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was first elected president in 1998, with 56% of the vote. He promised to bring in a new era of socialism. He was a true believer who grew up poor, in a home with a dirt floor. His motto was "Fatherland, socialism, or death."


Chavez was a 'democratic socialist.' Everything that he accomplished was via election. He won re-election in 2006 by a record 63%. He won again in 2012 by 55%, despite deep discontent over an economy that lay in ruins. When he lost an election, such as his attempt to overturn term limits in 2007, he accepted the result and moved forward.


Along with the inevitable climbers, Chavez always kept some fellow true believers around. One was planning minister Jorge ("The Monk") Giordani. Giordani was studying electrical engineering in Italy when he had an epiphany. His schematic diagrams could be married to socialism to create a grand plan for humanity. At a meeting, the oil minister joked about Giordani's big tube of rolled up blueprints: "Is that your bazooka to kill us all, Jorge?" But Jorge always kept all-important access to Chavez.


Another was Raphael Castellanos, a bookstore owner whose Caracas apartment was lined stem to stern with piles of books. When Chavez needed a citation, whether from the Bible, Bolivar, Marx, or Plato, Raphael would provide it. This was useful, since Chavez rivaled Castro in oratorical long-windedness. Raphael's motto was "utopia is realizable."


But it proved not to be so realizable. By 2012, the great Venezuelan diaspora had already begun. It is estimated that 2 million have left since. There is one overwhelming reason: a failed economy. I don't wish to make this post too long, but I'll give some examples below of why and how socialism didn't work for Venezuela.


Oh boy, not another uninformed post about socialism.

Venezuela's crisis was due to Chavez, not the system. Nowhere in socialism does it dictates he bets his country's entire fortune on oil staying at above $100 per barrel like he did. Chavez is an idiot who'd fail in any system.

Second, isn't the Right been saying how China's socialism is distorting the global market and stealing our jobs????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! So it's working for China.

So basically socialism works except when Chavez got his hands on it, eh???

Note, I don't like socialism. But this type of uninformed ignorant posts only serve to highlight some fraction's utter cluelessness.

.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
Reputation: 7950
Quote:
Originally Posted by beb0p View Post
Oh boy, not another uninformed post about socialism.

Venezuela's crisis was due to Chavez, not the system. Nowhere in socialism does it dictates he bets his country's entire fortune on oil staying at above $100 per barrel like he did. Chavez is an idiot who'd fail in any system.

Second, isn't the Right been saying how China's socialism is distorting the global market and stealing our jobs????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! So it's working for China.

So basically socialism works except when Chavez got his hands on it, eh???

Note, I don't like socialism. But this type of uninformed ignorant posts only serve to highlight some fraction's utter cluelessness.

.

Apart from all the fevered name calling, you have no argument. Chavez never bet on oil staying above $100. In fact one of his goals was to wean Venezuela from oil dependence.


Upon taking office in 1999, Chavez visited Ciudad Guyana, where a massive state-run manufacturing/mining conglomerate called CVG was located, at the confluence of the Orinco and Caroni rivers. Chavez called it the cradle of Venezuela's greatness to come. "Here is our future," he said.


Venalum was the country's largest aluminum maker. Chavez had socialized it, with machinists and technicians being told that they now ran the company. "Capitalism had its chance. Now let the workers take charge, let socialism flourish," Chavez had exulted. Journalist Sparrow interviewed the director, a man named Rada Gamluch.


Quote:
from 2009, he said, the voice dropping, it all went wrong. "The world economic crisis hit us." He corrected himself. "The capitalist crisis hit us.

Then in 2010 there was severe drought in Venezuela. Even though Venezuela is still ranked #1 (!) in the world in oil reserves, this meant a severe energy crisis due to decreased hydro-electricity. With the drought Chavez had three choices: reduce cheap electricity to the masses, ration electricity through scheduled blackouts, or pull the plug on Ciudad Guyana and its ravenous energy consumption. He chose the last option, which represented the least number of votes.


Functionaries from Caracas flew out to yank cables from machinery. But shutting down smelters takes time and care to avoid damage to machinery. The functionaries didn't know that. Entire plants were ruined. There was nothing that could be done to stop it, since the gov't owned the plants.


Quote:
This was the story from Gamluch, speaking in circumlocutions to avoid criticizing Chavez (two portraits gazed from his desk).

Production fell by more than half, and never really recovered. Director Gamluch said that he had signed new deals with Nicaragua and Cuba, but as these were two of the poorest countries of the region, it was not clear how they could help.


Quote:
A tour of the plant was dispiriting: ghostly factories that echoed if you shouted, assembly lines with cobwebs, a yard of dusty buses missing wheels and windows.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:41 PM
 
4,194 posts, read 2,018,904 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
(Info comes from the book Comandante: Hugo Chavez's Venezuela by Brit journalist Rory Sparrow).


The problem with increasingly popular 'democratic socialism' is that it is still socialism. Case in point: Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was first elected president in 1998, with 56% of the vote. He promised to bring in a new era of socialism. He was a true believer who grew up poor, in a home with a dirt floor. His motto was "Fatherland, socialism, or death."


Chavez was a 'democratic socialist.' Everything that he accomplished was via election. He won re-election in 2006 by a record 63%. He won again in 2012 by 55%, despite deep discontent over an economy that lay in ruins. When he lost an election, such as his attempt to overturn term limits in 2007, he accepted the result and moved forward.


Along with the inevitable climbers, Chavez always kept some fellow true believers around. One was planning minister Jorge ("The Monk") Giordani. Giordani was studying electrical engineering in Italy when he had an epiphany. His schematic diagrams could be married to socialism to create a grand plan for humanity. At a meeting, the oil minister joked about Giordani's big tube of rolled up blueprints: "Is that your bazooka to kill us all, Jorge?" But Jorge always kept all-important access to Chavez.


Another was Raphael Castellanos, a bookstore owner whose Caracas apartment was lined stem to stern with piles of books. When Chavez needed a citation, whether from the Bible, Bolivar, Marx, or Plato, Raphael would provide it. This was useful, since Chavez rivaled Castro in oratorical long-windedness. Raphael's motto was "utopia is realizable."


But it proved not to be so realizable. By 2012, the great Venezuelan diaspora had already begun. It is estimated that 2 million have left since. There is one overwhelming reason: a failed economy. I don't wish to make this post too long, but I'll give some examples below of why and how socialism didn't work for Venezuela.

Myth! Nothing like this exists in the United States.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
Reputation: 7950
Quote:
Originally Posted by tillman7 View Post
Myth! Nothing like this exists in the United States.
What do you mean by that?
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:55 PM
 
9,622 posts, read 5,939,901 times
Reputation: 6540
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Apart from all the fevered name calling, you have no argument. Chavez never bet on oil staying above $100. In fact one of his goals was to wean Venezuela from oil dependence.


Upon taking office in 1999, Chavez visited Ciudad Guyana, where a massive state-run manufacturing/mining conglomerate called CVG was located, at the confluence of the Orinco and Caroni rivers. Chavez called it the cradle of Venezuela's greatness to come. "Here is our future," he said.


Venalum was the country's largest aluminum maker. Chavez had socialized it, with machinists and technicians being told that they now ran the company. "Capitalism had its chance. Now let the workers take charge, let socialism flourish," Chavez had exulted. Journalist Sparrow interviewed the director, a man named Rada Gamluch.


Then in 2010 there was severe drought in Venezuela. Even though Venezuela is still ranked #1 (!) in the world in oil reserves, this meant a severe energy crisis due to decreased hydro-electricity. With the drought Chavez had three choices: reduce cheap electricity to the masses, ration electricity through scheduled blackouts, or pull the plug on Ciudad Guyana and its ravenous energy consumption. He chose the last option, which represented the least number of votes.


Functionaries from Caracas flew out to yank cables from machinery. But shutting down smelters takes time and care to avoid damage to machinery. The functionaries didn't know that. Entire plants were ruined. There was nothing that could be done to stop it, since the gov't owned the plants.


Production fell by more than half, and never really recovered. Director Gamluch said that he had signed new deals with Nicaragua and Cuba, but as these were two of the poorest countries of the region, it was not clear how they could help.


The information you provided is pointing to the culprit - Chavez. I suggest you digest it.

If you are for capitalism, as what you posted implied, you should support the Democratic party. They are the only party left in US who is still defending capitalism.

.
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
Reputation: 7950
Here's another example of what socialism did to Venezuela.


In Feb. 2010, Chavez and a group visited a plaza in Caracas near Miraflores, the presidential palace. Among the group was Mayor Rodriquez of Caracas. Chavez pointed to a nice 10 story building nearby and asked the mayor what was in it. It was La Francia, full of high-end jewelry shops. Mayor Rodriguez himself had recently bought an expensive emerald ring there.


Quote:
The comandante, arm outstretched, finger pointing, unleashed his bolt: "Expropriated it! Expropriate it!"

Rodriquez replied "OK." Chavez announced the expropriation on his TV show, Hello, President. The mayor prepared the expropriation paperwork and submitted it for Chavez's inspection on camera. "The process could not be more transparent," writes journalist Rory Sparrow.


Quote:
Later that night under cover of darkness, after the show had packed up and the plaza was deserted, the shop owners crept into their stores--the national guard had yet to move in--and poured all their gold, silver, pearls, rubies, and diamonds into cardboard boxes. By dawn they had loaded up and driven away. Fast forward a year, to Feb. 2011, and if you visited the expropriated stores, everything was boarded up, dusty, dilapidated...A lone sentry, a teenager in khakis with a rifle over his shoulder, leaned against a doorway. He was bored and fiddled with his phone. "Nobody here but me," he said, smiling."

Last edited by wutitiz; 07-21-2018 at 02:49 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
Reputation: 7950
Quote:
Originally Posted by beb0p View Post
The information you provided is pointing to the culprit - Chavez. I suggest you digest it.

If you are for capitalism, as what you posted implied, you should support the Democratic party. They are the only party left in US who is still defending capitalism.

.
No Chavez was not some magical demonic entity. It was his policies that devastated Venezuela, and they were socialist.


Venezuela to this day ranks #1 in the world for oil reserves, even greater than Saudi Arabia. And it has about 600 miles of Caribbean coast line (Aruba is just off the NW shores of Venezuela). And yet it is in crisis. Why? Socialism.


We can debate D vs R on another thread. This one is about socialism and Venezuela.
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,910 posts, read 5,797,394 times
Reputation: 8282
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Here's another example of what socialism did to Venezuela.


In Feb. 2010, Chavez and a group visited a plaza in Caracas near Miraflores, the presidential palace. Among the group was Mayor Rodriquez of Caracas. Chavez pointed to a nice 10 story building nearby and asked the mayor what was in it. It was La Francia, full of high-end jewelry shops. Mayor Rodriguez himself had recently bought an expensive emerald ring there.





Rodriquez replied "OK." Chavez announced the expropriation on his TV show, Hello, President. The mayor prepared the expropriation paperwork and submitted it for Chavez's inspection on camera. "The process could not be more transparent," writes journalist Rory Sparrow.
Excellent dissertation!!

Don't stop now!! What a cliffhanger.... Will the heroic democratic socialists triumph over the evil capitalist systems??

Inquiring minds wasn't to know...
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:23 PM
 
Location: California
240 posts, read 77,701 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
(Info comes from the book Comandante: Hugo Chavez's Venezuela by Brit journalist Rory Sparrow).


The problem with increasingly popular 'democratic socialism' is that it is still socialism. Case in point: Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was first elected president in 1998, with 56% of the vote. He promised to bring in a new era of socialism. He was a true believer who grew up poor, in a home with a dirt floor. His motto was "Fatherland, socialism, or death."


Chavez was a 'democratic socialist.' Everything that he accomplished was via election. He won re-election in 2006 by a record 63%. He won again in 2012 by 55%, despite deep discontent over an economy that lay in ruins. When he lost an election, such as his attempt to overturn term limits in 2007, he accepted the result and moved forward.
.
I hope you're not American because you're essentially sitting on the deck of the Titanic (post collision) and laughing at the way other boats have their decks arranged. You sit here and write a post speaking ill of Democratic Socialism when your country is a socialist utopia BUT FOR THE RICH!

- Is your company collapsing because you've made subpar cars for half a century that you overcharged for? 800 MILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT FOR YOU!

- Is your bank on the verge of collapsing because you loaned out money irresponsibly and almost crashed the economy? TRILLION DOLLAR BAIL OUT FOR YOU!

- Are you rich and have so much money that you buy million dollar watches and art work? TAX CUT FOR YOU!

- Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, KBR, and etc are not looking too hot financially. NEW BILLION DOLLAR WEAPON SYSTEMS PROJECT FOR YOU!

- Are you about to lose your house because the cost of living is increasing, your wages have been stagnant the past 4 years, and your significant other was laid off due to outsourcing? NO BAIL OUT FOR YOU! HOUSE FORECLOSURE AND BANKRUPTCY....GOOD LUCK PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS.


You're basically puppeting a philosophy pushed by the rich to get you to not demand more services for your taxes. You are being fleeced and it's eroding your economy but here you are with your propaganda talking points. The USA spends trillions on war, gives billions in aid to foreign countries, awards billions in contracts to corporations who then bankroll elections, but when people ask for the government to pay for schooling and healthcare all of a sudden we're broke.
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