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Old 08-02-2018, 03:57 PM
 
629 posts, read 240,861 times
Reputation: 469

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A question I wanted to pose especially to any posters currently working in programming, engineering, Web design or of other STEM fields, spin-off from another thread.. Some background. There's been a lot of media talk lately about how Trump was reforming and cracking down on chronic abuses of the H-1B visa, which is designed to bring in foreign skilled workers, esp. from India, to fill labor shortages only when Americans aren't available (or couldn't reasonably be trained), and crucial, at the same or higher salaries compared to Americans in the same job . Whereas, in reality, as shown in the notorious case of Disney trying to bring in low-salary H-1B's a couple years ago to lay off American workers, the H-1B has often in practice become simply a tool to bring in cheap labor by dangling a carrot to Indian workers willing to work long hours for low wages and no health insurance, in a desperate bid for a green card.

Labor like anything else is subject to supply and demand, and with India's ongoing struggle with development and overpopulation, with over 1.2 billion there and severe unemployment, there's an almost inexhaustible supply of IT workers to replace Americans. And India of course isn't the only country where this applies, so the H-1B abuse has the effect of driving down US wages, forcing Americans out of jobs (especially older workers and kids right of college who need the jobs for student loans), worsening age discrimination and the student loan crisis ($1.5 trillion debt now) and leading to terrible abuses of the foreign workers, who can't switch jobs, bargain for higher wages or request better conditions.

And of course Disney is hardly the only company with such abuses, it's a big issue for much of Silicon Valley and the tech industry, as well as banks and accounting firms and the worst abuses being Indian "body shops" like Wipro and Infosys, that subcontract out for H-1B workers under often squalid conditions, very low pay and no health coverage. And there's even been cottage industry of corrupt law firms and lawyers that sprung up, like the notorious Lawrence Lebowitz of the Cohen and Grigsby firm, that expressly build their business (in this case caught red-handed) on helping firms to break the law on the H-1B visa by putting out fake job ads exaggerating work and experience requirements and then claim there are no Americans available:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

So whatever side of political aisle you're on, I think it's fair to say the H-1B visa desperately needs reform, same with the L-1 visa which is also abused for cheap labor, or the programs that allow foreign college grads to stay in the US for a period, and even the EB-5 investor visa, and programs providing cheap labor to colleges, it's basically a ton of abuse that's terrible for almost everyone, including Americans and the abused foreign workers too, except for the CEO's who cash in on their corruption.

Here's what I'm wondering about-- what is Trump actually doing, if anything, to overhaul or even shut down (ex. to impose a suspension on, like what he did with the travel ban) the H-1B, L-1 and other abused visa programs? I've been hearing conflicting things on the media and from my own family, many whom work in STEM. I used to myself, though I'm semi-retired now, I saw a lot of these abuses up close. The H-1B workers from India and the Philippines esp. were treated like dirt by the body shops and their employers, working more than 100 hours a week, no health coverage, 7 roommates crammed into a filthy apartment to try to save money, used up and discarded and replaced with other imported cheap labor, all while Americans are laid off, wages drop, forced to work as contractors so no health insurance and kids out of college can't get the key experience they need on the career ladder or pay off student loans.

Whichever political party and candidates is smart enough to do real H-1B visa reform has an automatic election winner, especially for Independents like most of my family that actually decide the elections. I can tell you that at a family BBQ last weekend where the issue came up, nobody cares about most issues the media talks about, the Russia investigation or all that, the one thing everybody cares about is jobs and healthcare, that's what we'll vote on in November. If the GOP is smart, they'll see the H-1B is seen by Americans across parties as being grossly unjust and corrupt, and cancel or at least heavily reduce it. Dems, if they're smart, will follow Bernie Sanders and make it an issue of protecting worker conditions, jobs and salaries. Trump doesn't seem to be doing well on healthcare and not offered much to improve or reduce costs though at least he's gone quiet on it. On jobs though, whether you love him or hate him on any other things, President Trump at least he does seem to "get it" more than the Presidents before him in either party, at least understanding that too high immigration saturates labor supply so wages lower. But although Trump's talked a lot about restricting or even suspending the H-1B and L-1 visas like with that travel ban, I can't tell if he's actually done anything. One member of my family at the BBQ, a conservative who voted straight ticket Republican in 2016, expressed a lot of irritating saying Trump hasn't done much of anything to shut down the H-1B and is planning to stay home in November. Whereas, a cousin who's Independent thought Trump was doing a whole lot to reduce the H-1B and was going to vote for a candidate Trump endorsed My nephew is just about to graduate with a Bachelor's in computer programming and is just worried about jobs availability and low wages.

Since I'm kind of retired now, hear so many different things, wondering for any of you out there in STEM, has Donald Trump actually been doing things to reform, or even suspend or shut down the H-1B and L-1 visa programs? Or do you think it's all just talk and little action?
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:01 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,634 posts, read 74,577,828 times
Reputation: 48121
The savings to companies is enormous
Bottom line they don’t want to pay American wages
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:16 PM
 
629 posts, read 240,861 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
The savings to companies is enormous
Bottom line they donít want to pay American wages
Always wondered this, at least back when I was more heavily in the business seemed like it was short term gain but long term would bring the company down. They'd bring in these guys from India working for peanuts but then the quality of the coding, engineering and database management would be peanuts too. Critical code riddled with errors, angry customers and clients when core products or software didn't work. So then the company later on had to wind up hiring American contractors or in-house employees to clean up the H-1B workers mess anyway. And this was like, the normal way things happened, not exception. So the company paid twice over, once to hire the H-1B workers, then it didn't work, then they had to hire Americans anyway but **** off lose their customers anyway.

Another reason Trump should reform this mess and he'd gain a huge political windfall in from doing it. Even most of the Democrats I know would vote for Trump, or Republicans allied with him, if he concretely reduced, suspended or shut down the H-1B and the other cheap labor visa programs. Most people aren't political animals and don't pay attention to all the issues in the news and campaigns, but we do pay attention to things that have affect us directly like jobs. All the Independents and most Dems I know are like this, not too partisan, just want to vote for a candidate with good policy, and getting rid of sharply reducing the H-1B would be a big vote-getter in any state!
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:20 PM
 
16,083 posts, read 17,876,536 times
Reputation: 15867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corascant View Post
A question I wanted to pose especially to any posters currently working in programming, engineering, Web design or of other STEM fields, spin-off from another thread.. Some background. There's been a lot of media talk lately about how Trump was reforming and cracking down on chronic abuses of the H-1B visa, which is designed to bring in foreign skilled workers, esp. from India, to fill labor shortages only when Americans aren't available (or couldn't reasonably be trained), and crucial, at the same or higher salaries compared to Americans in the same job . Whereas, in reality, as shown in the notorious case of Disney trying to bring in low-salary H-1B's a couple years ago to lay off American workers, the H-1B has often in practice become simply a tool to bring in cheap labor by dangling a carrot to Indian workers willing to work long hours for low wages and no health insurance, in a desperate bid for a green card.

Labor like anything else is subject to supply and demand, and with India's ongoing struggle with development and overpopulation, with over 1.2 billion there and severe unemployment, there's an almost inexhaustible supply of IT workers to replace Americans. And India of course isn't the only country where this applies, so the H-1B abuse has the effect of driving down US wages, forcing Americans out of jobs (especially older workers and kids right of college who need the jobs for student loans), worsening age discrimination and the student loan crisis ($1.5 trillion debt now) and leading to terrible abuses of the foreign workers, who can't switch jobs, bargain for higher wages or request better conditions.

And of course Disney is hardly the only company with such abuses, it's a big issue for much of Silicon Valley and the tech industry, as well as banks and accounting firms and the worst abuses being Indian "body shops" like Wipro and Infosys, that subcontract out for H-1B workers under often squalid conditions, very low pay and no health coverage. And there's even been cottage industry of corrupt law firms and lawyers that sprung up, like the notorious Lawrence Lebowitz of the Cohen and Grigsby firm, that expressly build their business (in this case caught red-handed) on helping firms to break the law on the H-1B visa by putting out fake job ads exaggerating work and experience requirements and then claim there are no Americans available:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

So whatever side of political aisle you're on, I think it's fair to say the H-1B visa desperately needs reform, same with the L-1 visa which is also abused for cheap labor, or the programs that allow foreign college grads to stay in the US for a period, and even the EB-5 investor visa, and programs providing cheap labor to colleges, it's basically a ton of abuse that's terrible for almost everyone, including Americans and the abused foreign workers too, except for the CEO's who cash in on their corruption.

Here's what I'm wondering about-- what is Trump actually doing, if anything, to overhaul or even shut down (ex. to impose a suspension on, like what he did with the travel ban) the H-1B, L-1 and other abused visa programs? I've been hearing conflicting things on the media and from my own family, many whom work in STEM. I used to myself, though I'm semi-retired now, I saw a lot of these abuses up close. The H-1B workers from India and the Philippines esp. were treated like dirt by the body shops and their employers, working more than 100 hours a week, no health coverage, 7 roommates crammed into a filthy apartment to try to save money, used up and discarded and replaced with other imported cheap labor, all while Americans are laid off, wages drop, forced to work as contractors so no health insurance and kids out of college can't get the key experience they need on the career ladder or pay off student loans.

Whichever political party and candidates is smart enough to do real H-1B visa reform has an automatic election winner, especially for Independents like most of my family that actually decide the elections. I can tell you that at a family BBQ last weekend where the issue came up, nobody cares about most issues the media talks about, the Russia investigation or all that, the one thing everybody cares about is jobs and healthcare, that's what we'll vote on in November. If the GOP is smart, they'll see the H-1B is seen by Americans across parties as being grossly unjust and corrupt, and cancel or at least heavily reduce it. Dems, if they're smart, will follow Bernie Sanders and make it an issue of protecting worker conditions, jobs and salaries. Trump doesn't seem to be doing well on healthcare and not offered much to improve or reduce costs though at least he's gone quiet on it. On jobs though, whether you love him or hate him on any other things, President Trump at least he does seem to "get it" more than the Presidents before him in either party, at least understanding that too high immigration saturates labor supply so wages lower. But although Trump's talked a lot about restricting or even suspending the H-1B and L-1 visas like with that travel ban, I can't tell if he's actually done anything. One member of my family at the BBQ, a conservative who voted straight ticket Republican in 2016, expressed a lot of irritating saying Trump hasn't done much of anything to shut down the H-1B and is planning to stay home in November. Whereas, a cousin who's Independent thought Trump was doing a whole lot to reduce the H-1B and was going to vote for a candidate Trump endorsed My nephew is just about to graduate with a Bachelor's in computer programming and is just worried about jobs availability and low wages.

Since I'm kind of retired now, hear so many different things, wondering for any of you out there in STEM, has Donald Trump actually been doing things to reform, or even suspend or shut down the H-1B and L-1 visa programs? Or do you think it's all just talk and little action?
How about the H2-B visas that Trump uses. All of the workers at Mar-a-lago are on those.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:23 PM
 
1,884 posts, read 1,315,958 times
Reputation: 2060
He has not done anything. My entire neighborhood is H-1B visa holders and they are still working as usual. They don't make low wages though. They all make 6 figures. Maybe they'd pay an american 25% more but these guys are still making bank.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:32 PM
 
1,706 posts, read 830,089 times
Reputation: 1528
There was a thread related to this in that a GOP REP inserted language regarding Indian students. So no, US college grads are getting screwed.

Kansas GOP Kevin Yoder sells out Americans
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:41 PM
 
629 posts, read 240,861 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
How about the H2-B visas that Trump uses. All of the workers at Mar-a-lago are on those.
Can't disagree with you there, honestly I know just about nothing about the H2-B visa guidelines or what if anything Trump has said about them in the past so I couldn't really post anything informed one way or another. Whereas, I'd seen all the abuses and damage done by the H-1B, L-1 and other cheap labor tech visas from direct experience, and Trump had talked a whole lot about reigning in the H-1B and even canceling it during the campaign. He even specifically mentioned the anti-American practices of Disney and how the company basically broke the law during the campaign. (The visa specifically says only when Americans can't be found for the job, and if Americans are already working in that position like at Disney, obviously there are Americans available). I think, it's one of big reasons Trump beat Hillary more than other factors, even if people hated Trump on other issues, jobs protection is much more personal and important, so millions of Americans voted for him to reduce or eliminate the H-1B visa program completely. Just not sure where's gone with that impulse since then, I mean just being honest, even if people hate Trump, he has at least kept a lot of his campaign promises, so seems he'd be up on that.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:43 PM
 
629 posts, read 240,861 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by cchampagne232000 View Post
He has not done anything. My entire neighborhood is H-1B visa holders and they are still working as usual. They don't make low wages though. They all make 6 figures. Maybe they'd pay an american 25% more but these guys are still making bank.
Thanks that's informative, it's sort of in the line of what my relative was saying, although he was saying the H-1B's actually made a whole lot less. Surprising that employers would go through all the hassle to replace an American worker with an H-1B for that little in savings, seems like all the administration alone would eat up any savings from a cheaper hire.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:47 PM
 
1,884 posts, read 1,315,958 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corascant View Post
Thanks that's informative, it's sort of in the line of what my relative was saying, although he was saying the H-1B's actually made a whole lot less. Surprising that employers would go through all the hassle to replace an American worker with an H-1B for that little in savings, seems like all the administration alone would eat up any savings from a cheaper hire.
They hire them because they are just as good if not better and at a lower wage. Any wage saving is a saving. They are very intelligent and very dedicated workers.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,565 posts, read 11,062,540 times
Reputation: 10265
Just to be clear, L-1 visas are for internal company transfers. You need to have worked for the US company for a minimum of 1 year in an international location before you're eligible. Basically it's a visa for people who know the inner workings of a company and could not readily be replaced on the open market. The people here on L-1's are not cheap, and not taking a job that would be readily available to anyone.
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