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Old 09-03-2018, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,425,885 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
All people legally in the US can work as they wish to.

If for an employer, it was a mutually agreed upon decision. No government, nor state, nor city, made them take it.

I also support independent businessmen.

Haven't seen anyone die of starvation in any state or city I lived in.

If you have, you should move to a different one.
Right off the bat, you make a false statement.

I don't mean to antagonize you, but capitalism doesn't operate on voluntarism, it operates on force.

If you'd like, I'd highly suggest you read: The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin.
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:33 PM
 
34,006 posts, read 17,035,093 times
Reputation: 17186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Right off the bat, you make a false statement.

I don't mean to antagonize you, but capitalism doesn't operate on voluntarism, it operates on force.

If you'd like, I'd highly suggest you read: The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin.
LOL. There is no force.

We hire people weekly. They have freely applied. Of that group, we interview some, hire amongst them, make offers. Some accept, some decline.

In your fantasy world, we could dictate they work for us, no capability to decline. We could demand they apply. We'd love to, but we can't.
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,425,885 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
LOL. There is no force.

We hire people weekly. They have freely applied. Of that group, we interview some, hire amongst them, make offers. Some accept, some decline.

In your fantasy world, we could dictate they work for us, no capability to decline. We could demand they apply. We'd love to, but we can't.
1. You hire people, you take control over their labor, and they work FOR the needs of personal profit of the boss, because otherwise they wouldn't make money and starve. Forcing people to give up control over their labor to work or having their heads bashed by state police is force.

2. Freedom does work, it was what was natural before the age of empires. People produced among themselves, they labored on land, and worked together when need be to produce more. There was no artificial profit that gave people power beyond their physical abilities, or control of capital that they did not use.

The Free territories, farmers in Chiapas, Catalonia in the 1930s, people want to produce and live in peace, not be controlled by some outside force. But capitalism teaches us that production for the needs of maximizing profits and the collectivization of labor under a few businesses is the only way to go, we must have private powers controlling our labor. But no, these rules are against human nature and keep people oppressed.
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:48 PM
 
34,006 posts, read 17,035,093 times
Reputation: 17186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
1. You hire people, you take control over their labor, and they work FOR the needs of personal profit of the boss, because otherwise they wouldn't make money and starve..
Wrong. We hire people already employed. We lose staff to other employers. No force-they willingly quit past employers, they willingly quit us at some point, also.

If we controlled labor, we would not need recruiters. We would just walk onto the street and pick who we wished to work for us. We can't.

I have quit several jobs over many years. My employers countered 4 times. I said no 4 times.

USA has 6 million jobs open. Employers , at this time, fear voluntary attrition. We have 3 roles open where we will, no doubt, pay more due to supply-demand favoring supply, and we will get a less skilled employee than the employees who quit.
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:51 PM
 
7,977 posts, read 4,983,013 times
Reputation: 15951
Quote:
Originally Posted by phma View Post
Because he is a communist and therefore an idiot whos ideals will destroy America if given a chance.
America has always been destroyed more or less. The destruction already came form within (Just like forefathers predicted) . If you compare it to the 1950s for instance, its a freakin MESS
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,425,885 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
Wrong. We hire people already employed. We lose staff to other employers. No force-they willingly quit past employers, they willingly quit us at some point, also.

If we controlled labor, we would not need recruiters. We would just walk onto the street and pick who we wished to work for us. We can't.

I have quit several jobs over many years. My employers countered 4 times. I said no 4 times.

USA has 6 million jobs open. Employers , at this time, fear voluntary attrition. We have 3 roles open where we will, no doubt, pay more due to supply-demand favoring supply, and we will get a less skilled employee than the employees who quit.
Ok, let's go through this:

1. I wasn't speaking of you alone, yes workers have some choices on who to sell their labor to, but no matter what, without ownership of capital, they have to give up their labor to someone else

2. You can find someone with a specific skill, but you still give them confines in how they work, what they work on, etc. as they are operating on YOUR capital

3. Being offered a job doesn't change the dynamics

4. Demand of employees comes from the needs of the executives, not the needs of the individual

5. Bottom line, whether workers are in demand or not, they work by the needs of their employer, and given the nature of capitalism, they're not given a choice.
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Old 09-03-2018, 02:05 PM
 
34,006 posts, read 17,035,093 times
Reputation: 17186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Ok, let's go through this:

1. I wasn't speaking of you alone, yes workers have some choices on who to sell their labor to.

, and that also lets them choose salary ranges acceptable to them, benefits same way, industries, hours, skill sets they can acquire, etc.
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Old 09-03-2018, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,425,885 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
, and that also lets them choose salary ranges acceptable to them, benefits same way, industries, hours, skill sets they can acquire, etc.
No, because businesses are all alike in nature. Their goal is to manipulate labor to maximize profits, many times that is limiting production/work hours so work that is not profitable is cut out, or keeping workers without any significant say in production. Either way, they're controlled.
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Old 09-03-2018, 02:28 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
No, under production of needs are purposeful done by executives of a company to keep prices artificially high. And most none-needs production (useless stuff) is over produced (at the expense of resources that could be used otherwise) to help build demand for their supply (marketing, product placement, etc.).

If you had a free society of voluntary production, people would make what they need without the confines of executives who abuse labor to benefit their bottom line.
I can see you've never worked with the public. Why do you think MBAs receive such high salaries compared to an all too common unskilled shift worker? Even wildlife have hierarchies in their societal groups, with some members having more access to the group's production and the fruits of their labor than others. It's nature's way.
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Old 09-03-2018, 02:34 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,971 posts, read 44,780,079 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
You are hilarious.
I had to laugh at that, too. Clearly, he's never worked with the public or has very little experience doing so, has never had to manage production schedules, coordinating with supply chain schedules, etc., and has never owned a business. Posts as if he's an inexperienced kid.
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