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Where did you hear that?
There are many office holders who wear an R, that are Pro-Choice.
At the local levels for sure.
Oh for heaven's sake BB. It's in the friggin' R party platform and has been for decades. The current platform is readily available online. Before you vote for another R, it might behoove you to read it. I can assure you that many Ds have read it.
As someone with a biology background....I spent a quarter in Biology 1B looking at “fetuses” floating in formaldehyde on top of the cabinets in lab. This was in the early 1970’s right during the time of Roe decision.
I suspect the Supreme Court never spent much time looking at fetuses. I did not notice what was special about 20 weeks.
Almost 20 years later we lost a baby to “fetal demise” at 20 weeks. She sure looked like a baby to me. BTW...the hospital asked me “ what do you want to do with IT”. My choices were dump it in the garbage, cremate it at the local funeral home, or save it for a formal funeral.
Bless them, for recognizing what a difficult decision abortion or any fetal demise is for those concerned. After that Biology 1B class I have always leaned pro-life. Abortion is awful.
I did vote for Gay marriage in Washington state. I don’t give a rip about WHOM you are married to. I do think anybody should be able to chose their life partner without STATE interference.
Look the ONLY reason government is involved in marriage is to protect the weaker partners. That is usually the non-working spouse and the children. THAT is why governments got involved in marriage.
My solution is to get the government out of the marriage business. Marriage is between YOU and your partner and whatever DIETY you believe in, if any.
The role of government, however, is to protect the weaker partners. So lets make it CIVIL UNIONS. You get to sit down with a para-legal and they will explain the rights and obligations of a civil union to you. Then you will sign a written contract with your partner. NO ceremony, no religious BS just a legal contract between you and your partner.
So there you go....a conservative viewpoint on abortion and same-sex (really all marriages).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Open-D
OK, I'll meet you half way. Let her have her abortion, and then march her off to the gallows after a very speedy and excruciatingly-fair trial. WIN WIN with 2 Democrat voters culled from the voter rolls. Hey, convenience rules. Don't want my irresponsible life affected by the results of my own actions. Typical Liberal, abdication of responsibility, position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot
Since liberals are so fond of making arguments in the form of "Its not bothering you so why do you care?", let's turn that around to would-be abortive mothers. If its not bothering you, why do you care? Why can't you just let that unborn baby live its life the way it wants to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Favoring the overturning of Roe v. Wade and Obergefell v. Hodges isn't the same as banning abortion or banning gay marriage. Overturning the decisions would put the issues back in the political arena for the states to decide.
Which is where it ought to be anyway.
All of the above show a very sad lack of thought.
*Abortion, at least at some point, must remain a vital right. Anything else is too inhumane to consider. All of the above people are infected by a some kind of meme that tells them not to think apparently, or distracts them from doing so. Roe v. Wade keeps abortion, at least some kinds of it, legal. Roe v. Wade must remain.
*Viewing a fetus has absolutely nothing to do with whether abortion is right or wrong.
*The rational person acknowledges that there are times when abortion is the most humane treatment of the developing fetus.
I don't know what prospect would be more disturbing...that the meme responsible for such a sad lack of thought is just something many people are born with yet never overcome, or that it's a virulent sort of meme, like a virulent mental disease that spreads through communication. Hopefully we'll find an effective treatment. If it's inevitably a widespread sort of meme though, and there's nothing we can do about it, I'd have major concerns about the fate of humanity.
Regarding the bit about civil unions, I look at it like we already have a system that works now. Why change tradition that people are so used to, that the vast majority of people don't seem to have a problem with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapa1
I don’t know why some people who are against abortion think that it’s an easy decision for a woman to make, because most of the time it’s not! It really is a personal issue, and nobody has the right to control someone else’s body. Keep Roe v. Wade, or you’ll kill a lot of women who try abortions themselves.
And there was a sensible statement. Everyone in the world should understand that, by default. That so many don't shows our society has some kind of mental sickness. Hopefully it doesn't destroy everything at some point.
*Abortion, at least at some point, must remain a vital right. Anything else is too inhumane to consider.
*Viewing a fetus has absolutely nothing to do with whether abortion is right or wrong.
*The rational person acknowledges that there are times when abortion is the most humane treatment of the developing fetus.
Rights are the first Ten Admendments to the Constitution. Abortion is NOT a right.
Obviously, you are not looking at “inhumane” from the point of view of the fetus (baby).
A rational person with a background in biology recognizes that abortion is awful. There are conditions when it is appropriate. They are few and rare.
Abortion is awful. I have never seen any creature that accepts its death. Life is precious and special.
However, as a conservative I do support birth control for everybody at any time. Anything, to avoid abortions is fine by me.
For a while there, gay people who were married in one state became magically unmarried when they crossed a state line. It wasn't that long ago, and several cases were in the news. I'm surprised you missed it.
No I did not miss it. You may be talking the period of time between the striking down of "The Defense of Marriage Act" and marriage becoming legal in every state. The ironic thing about that federal marriage benefits or at least many of them followed those into states that did not recognize gay marriage.
That was kind of my point of asking the question.
Rights are the first Ten Admendments to the Constitution. Abortion is NOT a right.
Obviously, you are not looking at “inhumane” from the point of view of the fetus (baby).
A rational person with a background in biology recognizes that abortion is awful. There are conditions when it is appropriate. They are few and rare.
Abortion is awful. I have never seen any creature that accepts its death. Life is precious and special.
However, as a conservative I do support birth control for everybody at any time. Anything, to avoid abortions is fine by me.
*When I say "right" I'm talking about what's actually right...not the constitutional amendments, necessarily.
*How about explaining why abortion is so awful Mr. biologist? Here's a hint: tell me about fetal psychology and neurology and how capable of experiencing pain they are, and at what stages. Those are the only factors a sensible person would use to conclude that abortion is awful...if it is.
But that's just the science-related stuff. The other reasons why abortion might be positive or negative have little to do with science. So, once you're doing doing that, explain why, even if the fetus can feel pain when it's aborted, or feels something unpleasant, why that pain is worse than various struggles the fetus would face if it were allowed to live? I'll explain more about what I'm looking for below:
*When a person gets an abortion it's almost certainly for one of three reasons: 1. The person doesn't want a child. 2. The person doesn't believe they're ready for a child, or 3. the fetus has some kind of genetic or physical defect.
Now, given those three potential reasons for wanting an abortion, and given than that you've insisted that abortion is awful, explain why it's usually better to be a child with genetic or physiological disorders, to be a child raised by parents who didn't want it, or to be raised by parents, or a parent, who weren't ready for it, than for it to experience a temporary period of pain - what might as well be described as a cure for any genetic disorders it had, or a cure for parents who weren't in an ideal state to have a child?
Then, you should also explain why you're so confident that abortions during the first trimester cause any pain at all...because they'd have to, or else we'd have little to no reason to be opposed to them. Note that you specifically stated that abortion is awful and there are only a few, rare occasions when it is appropriate. The vast majority of abortions take place during the first trimester. Therefore, you must believe abortions in the first trimester cause the fetus pain, or that there's a respectable chance of that, or your thought process would appear to not make sense.
Then, once your done explaining why abortion is usually worse for the fetus than giving birth to it, subtract any suffering the parents experience from having a child they weren't ready for, or didn't want, and explain to me why having the child was still the better route, even after that addition of suffering.
Abortion, at least some kind, is a right. It is a right, because the alternative would be too cruel to consider, for pretty obvious reasons.
Simple....it is more important for a gay person to form a civil union with their partner, than for me to make a political point by opposing gay marriage.
Gay marriage has NO EFFECT on my life, it is a HUGE effect on those that want to form a civil union.
No effect on you? How do you know that?
You know everyone has the power of contract, right? So if you really want to tie yourself up in legal knots with another person, we all of us already have the right to do that. How is a contract not a "civil union"? A real contract, btw, would be far more of a sensible choice to create a union than anything that can be created by marriage.
You know everyone has the power of contract, right? So if you really want to tie yourself up in legal knots with another person, we all of us already have the right to do that. How is a contract not a "civil union"? A real contract, btw, would be far more of a sensible choice to create a union than anything that can be created by marriage.
No....you can write a “civil union” contract with another person.
BUT unfortunately, there is a third party to any contract and that is the government. So yes, you might have a contract with another person, but in many states the government will treat you different than a “married” couple when it comes to visitation rights and end of life decisions. AND a host of other issues. Not to mention what happens when children become part of the scene.
So no....a real contract between two parties is much, much less than a civil union sanctioned by the government.`
Which is why I voted for same-sex marriage in Washington state.....as a right-wing conservative.
........................
..............................*How about explaining why abortion is so awful Mr. biologist? Here's a hint: tell me about fetal psychology and neurology and how capable of experiencing pain they are, and at what stages. Those are the only factors a sensible person would use to conclude that abortion is awful...if it is.
*When a person gets an abortion it's almost certainly for one of three reasons: 1. The person doesn't want a child. 2. The person doesn't believe they're ready for a child, or 3. the fetus has some kind of genetic or physical defect. ............
................Abortion, at least some kind, is a right. It is a right, because the alternative would be too cruel to consider, for pretty obvious reasons.
I fish and hunt (birds). I kill things and eat them. I have never had the sense that birds or fish feel pain. I do know mammals feel pain.
To me it is not about pain. It is about life. I never got the sense that any fish or bird that I have killed was ok with dying. I do get the sense that no living thing wants to die.
I do get squeamish about killing fish and birds. They don’t want to die. Nothing wants to die. Nobody should be ok with killing without reason
Which brings up your second point. IF you don’t want to have a child.....practice birth control.
If your not ready to raise a child.....practice birth control.
Your third point is more difficult. As somebody that leans pro-life I had a difficult time with the third pregnancy. The first two mid-carried due to genetic defects. I was willing to do genetic testing and abort. My pro-choice wife refused to do genetic testing. She was going to carry to term.
Abortion is an AWFUL decision. Until you have to face the decision you really have no clue how awful it is.
I know woman that aborted early in their life. Their decision haunts them to this day. They were not ready for children at the time, but now they realize that they terminated a life. To this day, they wonder about that child they aborted.
It is a AWFUL decision. Abortion should be rare. Nobody wins in an abortion.
As someone with a biology background....I spent a quarter in Biology 1B looking at “fetuses” floating in formaldehyde on top of the cabinets in lab. This was in the early 1970’s right during the time of Roe decision.
I suspect the Supreme Court never spent much time looking at fetuses. I did not notice what was special about 20 weeks.
Almost 20 years later we lost a baby to “fetal demise” at 20 weeks. She sure looked like a baby to me. BTW...the hospital asked me “ what do you want to do with IT”. My choices were dump it in the garbage, cremate it at the local funeral home, or save it for a formal funeral.
Bless them, for recognizing what a difficult decision abortion or any fetal demise is for those concerned. After that Biology 1B class I have always leaned pro-life. Abortion is awful.
I did vote for Gay marriage in Washington state. I don’t give a rip about WHOM you are married to. I do think anybody should be able to chose their life partner without STATE interference.
Look the ONLY reason government is involved in marriage is to protect the weaker partners. That is usually the non-working spouse and the children. THAT is why governments got involved in marriage.
My solution is to get the government out of the marriage business. Marriage is between YOU and your partner and whatever DIETY you believe in, if any.
The role of government, however, is to protect the weaker partners. So lets make it CIVIL UNIONS. You get to sit down with a para-legal and they will explain the rights and obligations of a civil union to you. Then you will sign a written contract with your partner. NO ceremony, no religious BS just a legal contract between you and your partner.
So there you go....a conservative viewpoint on abortion and same-sex (really all marriages).
People get married to legally make their partner their next of kin. If afftects various life issues such as rights of inheritance, the right to make medical decisions when one is incapacitated, decisions about death. You create a new family by getting married, your parents no longer serve as your next of kin, your spouse does. As far as the government is concerned marriage is a civil union. The religious aspect is between people and their church if they chose a religious ceremony, not the government.
Abortion may be awful but a compromise has been made between the right of a woman to do with her own body as she pleases and societies protection of an unborn child by limiting that right to a certain time period. Laws don't stop people doing what they want anyway. In states that severly limit abortion, there is a growing black market in the abotion pill and I'd place a large bet that many black market abortions are already being done. There is plenty of "how to" information available to those who are looking to do themselves. All banning it would do is increase medical costs due to mistakes.
If someone is genuinily opposed to abortion by all means educate, create programs to help women figure out how to keep a baby they can't afford or aren't ready for. Making laws will have little effect. Those with means will simply leave the country or pay a hefty sum to a doc looking to make a fortune. Those w/o means could end up dead or maimed. Best case the country ends up with a lot more children whose parents can't afford to care for them. I'm all for increased access to BC but here in reality that's not going to stop abortion.
I don’t know why some people who are against abortion think that it’s an easy decision for a woman to make, because most of the time it’s not! It really is a personal issue, and nobody has the right to control someone else’s body. Keep Roe v. Wade, or you’ll kill a lot of women who try abortions themselves.
The preborn baby is NOT the mothers body. It is the baby's body, and anybody with a wiff of intelligence and a shred or more of intellectual honesty can see. The veil of your silly canard has been pierced, and lies in tatters on the floor.
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