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Old 09-15-2018, 06:04 PM
 
10,198 posts, read 6,274,942 times
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Do you want to take away my Social Security check for refusing a flu, pneumonia, whooping cough, or shingles shot too?

Last edited by Jo48; 09-15-2018 at 06:22 PM..

 
Old 09-15-2018, 06:14 PM
 
10,198 posts, read 6,274,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The established religions in the US do not prohibit vaccination. "It's against my religion" is most often a proxy for "I do not want to vaccinate because vaccine cause autism".
What would you say to a strict Vegan who won't eat or use animal products? Ok, you don't have to eat beef, but you have no choice but be injected with bovine serum in this vaccine?

While this may not be a religious objection, it certainly is a philosophical one, which many states do allow an exemption for.


Do you personally know any Vegans? It isn't about Autism.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Florida
7,195 posts, read 5,705,767 times
Reputation: 12337
Based on the people I know who are anti-vax, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that forcing welfare recipient to vaccinate is going to make much of a difference. At least among those I know, it's generally the educated, somewhat affluent people who are not vaxing, not the moms who take their children to the health department for checkups, because they get their vaccines done there for free at the same time.

I would be very hesitant to make vaccination a requirement for receiving welfare benefits, though. As long as they can fulfill the requirement for attending public school in the state (meaning qualifying for whatever exemptions are available in that state), then that should be satisfactory for whatever additional social services are needed.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 11:51 AM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,113,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
So you are anti religion. You would stop them for people who have a religious belief against vaccines.
Their myths aren't more important than public health safety.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 11:53 AM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,113,068 times
Reputation: 13660
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
A better way to handle it would be, offer vaccines to everyone, and those that refuse for whatever reason, would have to pay for all their medical care should they become ill, because they failed to get vaccinated.

Bob.
I'm surprised insurers haven't adopted this. It makes sense.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 11:56 AM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,113,068 times
Reputation: 13660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
What would you say to a strict Vegan who won't eat or use animal products? Ok, you don't have to eat beef, but you have no choice but be injected with bovine serum in this vaccine?

While this may not be a religious objection, it certainly is a philosophical one, which many states do allow an exemption for.


Do you personally know any Vegans? It isn't about Autism.
Unless there's an allergy or other legitimate medical reason not to get it, I consider ethical veganism similar to religion: it's fine most of the time, but not at the cost of public safety.

Also I ask, if you were critically ill, and you needed immediate treatment, would you stop the doctors and first make sure the treatment was vegan?

If not then, why do so with vaccines? Maybe you won't risk your own life much if you come down with measles, but if you spread it to anyone with a compromised immune system (who may not be able to get vaccines, and instead rely entirely on herd immunity), that could easily be a death sentence for them.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 11:58 AM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,902,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The established religions in the US do not prohibit vaccination. "It's against my religion" is most often a proxy for "I do not want to vaccinate because vaccine cause autism".
Keep on banging that autistic drum and psychically mind reading everyone else's intentions.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,475,124 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
(Obviously anybody who truly cannot get vaccines for doctor-verified health reasons would be exempt)

Before anyone suggests it, assume that welfare won't be entirely eliminated from everyone (realistically it won't).

But in Australia, families who don't vaccinate don't get welfare benefits. Miraculously, there was a surge of families who apparently decided that vaccines don't cause autism after all!

Would the same thing be effective in the US? Or alternatively, not allowing them to use the child tax credit.

In a perfect world, there would be non-government strategies to deal with this, but we live in a government world (and that won't change anytime soon), so non-government solutions wouldn't likely work.
For starts, "welfare" in Australia is not the same as what we call welfare here in the US. Basically, what they are talking about in Australia is similar (meaning not quite the same for you keyboard warriors) to our child care tax credits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
So you are anti religion. You would stop them for people who have a religious belief against vaccines.
As suzy_q2010 said, there are no major religions that are opposed to vaccines. By major I'm talking about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. There are some groups within those religions who oppose vaccines. The big group in Christianity is not, as you might expect, Christian Science, but the Dutch Reformed Church in the Netherlands and its sister branch in Canada. However, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa seemingly has no problem with vaccines, nor does the Reformed Church in the USA.
http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...tate-vaccines/

The Mississippi Supreme Court judged that religious exemptions discriminate against non-religious people, almost 40 years ago!
"Mississippi's Supreme Court ruled that such a distinction violated the U.S. Constitution's Equal Protection Clause by favoring religious over philosophical objectors (Brown v. Stone, 1979)."
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...8701?query=TOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
A better way to handle it would be, offer vaccines to everyone, and those that refuse for whatever reason, would have to pay for all their medical care should they become ill, because they failed to get vaccinated.

Bob.
Vaccines are available to everyone. Anyone with ACA-compliant insurance, which is almost everyone with insurance, gets vaccines for free at the point of service. For the uninsured, underinsured (those w/o ACA-compliant insurance), on Medicaid, Alaskan Native and/or Native American, there is the federal Vaccines for Children which provides free vaccines until the 19th birthday.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/index.html

Even for adults, there are some low-cost/no cost options at local health departments, visiting nurse agencies and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Do you want to take away my Social Security check for refusing a flu, pneumonia, whooping cough, or shingles shot too?
Might be a good idea! J/K!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
What would you say to a strict Vegan who won't eat or use animal products? Ok, you don't have to eat beef, but you have no choice but be injected with bovine serum in this vaccine?

While this may not be a religious objection, it certainly is a philosophical one, which many states do allow an exemption for.


Do you personally know any Vegans? It isn't about Autism.
See the article I posted about religion. Most religions exempt vaccines from "forbidden foods". There is an egg-free flu vaccine available, and many vaccines are made without animal products.

Here's a list of vaccine ingredients:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pi...nt-table-2.pdf

An article about vegan vaccines:
https://vaxopedia.org/2017/05/19/whi...nes-are-vegan/

An article for "reasonable" vegans (not my word)
Anti-vax and Veganism | Reasonable Vegan

An article from a vegan biologist:
https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/1...uld-vaccinate/
 
Old 09-16-2018, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,198 posts, read 22,263,933 times
Reputation: 23827
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
A better way to handle it would be, offer vaccines to everyone, and those that refuse for whatever reason, would have to pay for all their medical care should they become ill, because they failed to get vaccinated.

Bob.
That won't ever happen. If a person is too poor to pay for a vaccination, he's too poor to pay a hospital bill.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,475,124 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
That won't ever happen. If a person is too poor to pay for a vaccination, he's too poor to pay a hospital bill.
Please see my post above about charges for vaccinations.
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