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Old 09-17-2018, 12:31 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,461 posts, read 5,239,047 times
Reputation: 10789

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New York City and other municipalities face a seriously deteriorating infrastructure. Of that there can be no doubt. The New York area alone recently faced the building of a replacement for the Tappan Zee Bridge, that opened only fairly recently in 1955. Ancient subway tunnels face problems with outmoded signals and from hurricane damage. California is in the midst of a hopelessly expensive construction of a high speed rail line. The Northeast Corridor Line of Amtrak, connecting Boston to New York to Washington is in need of major repairs. Metro North and NJ Transit are having serious problems installing "positive train controls" to prevent deadly accidents such as one at Spuyten Duyvil in Bronx, New York on December 1, 2013. These are all laudable, but hugely expensive projects.

What this thread addresses is the impossibly high labor costs of any construction project. This guarantees that the project will proceed at a crawl. The rebuilding of the L line should not be projected to take 18 months; the modernization of the signals should not be projected to take over 10 years. The East Side Access of the LIRR similarly is going nowhere fast.

An example of the labor costs is the replacement of the Tappan Zee bridge, there was litigation relating to "the wage difference between carpenters and dock builders" where "(c)arpenters are paid $70.11 per hour, compared with dock builders that make $92.47 per hour." No consideration is given to a "workfare" program where benefits recipients would apprentice and be paid, say, $22 an hour to learn a trade and $40-$45 per our when working at these trades. The cost numbers of $20 billion to build these tunnels and related train station improvements is eye-popping and ultimately unfeasible. No matter how badly needed nothing is going to get built at any acceptable speed at those figures.

There is a sorely missing from the discussion of fixing the country's transit woes. The construction unions must join the discussion as well as, potentially, the governmental officials in charge of "poverty" programs and "community organizers.

The subway projects have to be similar. Labor costs are prohibitive. Other gold-plating on these projects needs to be removed, but all must participate. These projects must happen and the costs must be made bearable.
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Cape Cod
9,863 posts, read 7,143,666 times
Reputation: 18051
I lived near Boston when the "Big Dig" was going on and had to face the mess of traffic many times.

The Big Dig was a ridiculous project that had huge overruns of money and time and it was party due to the graft and corruption which is jokingly so prevalent in Massachusetts.


Locally we are rebuilding Fire and Police stations and schools that have been deemed obsolete and decrepit to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. These buildings in some cases are less than 50 years old. Meanwhile in Ireland, (my wife is from there and we go back often) municipalities are using buildings that are hundreds of years old.





The cost of construction is HUGE not to mention the permits, the fees, the feasibility studies, the consultants, the architects, etc etc etc...



It is amazing anything gets done BUT as they say anything is possible it is just gonna cost you.
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:58 PM
 
Location: OH->FL->NJ
7,831 posts, read 7,279,408 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
I lived near Boston when the "Big Dig" was going on and had to face the mess of traffic many times.

The Big Dig was a ridiculous project that had huge overruns of money and time and it was party due to the graft and corruption which is jokingly so prevalent in Massachusetts.


Locally we are rebuilding Fire and Police stations and schools that have been deemed obsolete and decrepit to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. These buildings in some cases are less than 50 years old. Meanwhile in Ireland, (my wife is from there and we go back often) municipalities are using buildings that are hundreds of years old.





The cost of construction is HUGE not to mention the permits, the fees, the feasibility studies, the consultants, the architects, etc etc etc...



It is amazing anything gets done BUT as they say anything is possible it is just gonna cost you.
Depends where you are. In the exurban town my kids I go to, the main building is from 1927 and the "new" section is from 1967 and is in overall nice condition. They did replace the heating system to natural gas when it came to the area. That did reduce costs.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:03 PM
 
Location: PSL
7,348 posts, read 1,724,176 times
Reputation: 2621
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
New York City and other municipalities face a seriously deteriorating infrastructure. Of that there can be no doubt. The New York area alone recently faced the building of a replacement for the Tappan Zee Bridge, that opened only fairly recently in 1955. Ancient subway tunnels face problems with outmoded signals and from hurricane damage. California is in the midst of a hopelessly expensive construction of a high speed rail line. The Northeast Corridor Line of Amtrak, connecting Boston to New York to Washington is in need of major repairs. Metro North and NJ Transit are having serious problems installing "positive train controls" to prevent deadly accidents such as one at Spuyten Duyvil in Bronx, New York on December 1, 2013. These are all laudable, but hugely expensive projects.

What this thread addresses is the impossibly high labor costs of any construction project. This guarantees that the project will proceed at a crawl. The rebuilding of the L line should not be projected to take 18 months; the modernization of the signals should not be projected to take over 10 years. The East Side Access of the LIRR similarly is going nowhere fast.

An example of the labor costs is the replacement of the Tappan Zee bridge, there was litigation relating to "the wage difference between carpenters and dock builders" where "(c)arpenters are paid $70.11 per hour, compared with dock builders that make $92.47 per hour." No consideration is given to a "workfare" program where benefits recipients would apprentice and be paid, say, $22 an hour to learn a trade and $40-$45 per our when working at these trades. The cost numbers of $20 billion to build these tunnels and related train station improvements is eye-popping and ultimately unfeasible. No matter how badly needed nothing is going to get built at any acceptable speed at those figures.

There is a sorely missing from the discussion of fixing the country's transit woes. The construction unions must join the discussion as well as, potentially, the governmental officials in charge of "poverty" programs and "community organizers.

The subway projects have to be similar. Labor costs are prohibitive. Other gold-plating on these projects needs to be removed, but all must participate. These projects must happen and the costs must be made bearable.
Cuomo is going to Cuomo. There is no way that miserable prick will allow a learn and earn program to take place unless a SUNY school is tied into it. How's that STARTUPNY going? They still run ads down here for it

This is why I don't support unions.
This is part of why I ran like NY was on fire.

The more voluminous the regulations (red tape) the higher the taxes and corrupt bureaucrats that all get their hands in to provide "oversight" to blow a project over budget and beyond deadlines. That's the NY way. That's why NY has the problems that it has. Yet. You tell people in NY what the problem is. You have them watch CBS6 You Paid For It. It's like talking to a wall. They'll still vote for Cuomo and Schumer and still sit there playing stupid herp derp why am I paying so much in taxes? If only we had some more labor unions. If only we had more NY state over sight. If only we had more red tape.

Me. I'll hire someone on with 0 experience. Pay them and teach them. Give them a raise based on their productivity and proficiency and will to learn and apply themselves. Youngest employee turns 20 soon. How many 19 year olds make 18 per hour after 8 months of time?

Meanwhile. In NY. You can work for the state. Stare at potholes for 7 hours of the day and fix one and call it a day. Earn 40k to start. Have a pension and top tier health insurance, and be protected by a union. And people wonder why their property taxes are so high. Why their sales tax is so high. Why fuel tax is so high. Why tolls are so high.
State just burns through everyone's money. Everyone has to live on a budget. Except for NY state, the state can burn through money like it's going out of style. And the idiots will continue to vote for the same Aholes that do more of the same old same old.

NY does not get my sympathy. You get what you voted for and get what you supported. Enjoy paying more for it and those high costs of living in exchange for crap roads and failing infrastructure. Ya'll deserve it. Honestly. Just keep voting and supporting the same old-same old and get nothing in return. Just double down on the dumb and cry victim, I'm sure Trump will be blamed some how...
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,940,993 times
Reputation: 4998
There’s no question that NY is corrupt. But I’d rather live in a state run by corrupt a$$holes that have a grip on reality, as opposed to the Bible Belt states run by corrupt religious nut jobs.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:29 PM
 
5,438 posts, read 4,206,899 times
Reputation: 5744
We should round up illegals and make them do it.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:31 PM
 
4,730 posts, read 4,851,989 times
Reputation: 4855
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What this thread addresses is the impossibly high labor costs
Make it MANDATORY for all jobs to pay minimum wage. Done.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Union County, North Carolina
5,145 posts, read 6,357,715 times
Reputation: 4312
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiftymh View Post
We should round up illegals and make them do it.
You may want to "cross that bridge when you come to it" that illegals built, but I don't!
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:41 PM
 
2,045 posts, read 824,395 times
Reputation: 1808
Don't blame the construction workers. Infrastructure projects in Europe have high wages and even higher rates of unionization; yet - they cost way less. It's the administrative costs that are out of control.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:43 PM
 
Location: PSL
7,348 posts, read 1,724,176 times
Reputation: 2621
Prime example of NY knows best and NY values.

Rivers casino in Schenectady.
https://dailygazette.com/article/201...on-schenectady
Pay close attention to the bold and underlined.

Rivers Casino & Resort in Schenectady wants to take 10 percent of the tax it pays to the state and spend it instead on marketing. It also wants to stop subsidizing horse racing purses at the nearby Saratoga Casino & Hotel, which has suffered a 20 percent decline in business since Rivers opened 20 miles away.


In nearly 14 months of operation, Rivers has grown to employ nearly 1,200 who are paid substantially more than the industry average.
(This right here^ if I had any say, they would get a tax break. 10% of what they're currently paying to use that money they normally would have paid to crony Cuomo and company to pay for marketing to draw more people to the area. Granted. It's not Vegas. There isn't the allure there. Advertising to generate more revenue? You'd make that money back in volume of new guests and repeat guests. NY state cronies? NO! AHOLES! YOU'D BE GETTING THAT MONEY FROM A. MORE VOLUME B. STATE MARKETING COMPANIES AS THEY ARE RECEIVING REVENUE!)

Hundreds of thousands of guests have gambled more than $1.3 billion on its gaming floors, and Rivers has paid the state, city and surrounding municipalities a $50 million one-time fee and more than $50 million more in the form of ongoing monthly, quarterly and annual taxes.

(Where is that money going? Oh Education. Yes, of course. Education aid. Where the school admins will show up in a new luxury sedan/suv and tell teachers they can't get raises even though they make more than the national average in NY state, or build football stadiums I mean football fields )
As of Friday, negotiations for the 2018-19 state budget were underway. But Assemblyman Phil Steck, D-Colonie, whose district includes Rivers Casino and who supports the changes Rivers seeks as a matter of fairness, said there apparently would be no help extended as part of the budget.
( a Democrat with a functioning brain!)

No less a figure than Gov. Andrew Cuomo threw cold water on the request, saying he didn’t want to “bail out” casinos.
(Here it comes are you ready? )
He had been a major backer of limited legalized casino gambling as a means of recapturing money New Yorkers were spending at casinos in other states. And he has heralded the opening of each casino, in turn.
(Yet if you hold a card game with cash on the table, you'll have state troopers kicking your door in! But yes. We need NYers money that would have been spent out of state! No tax breaks to go toward marketing to draw more guests to generate even more revenue!)

Rivers is in the district of Sen. Jim Tedisco, R-Glenville, who indicated his appreciation for the casino in a prepared statement but said a more plausible approach would be for the casino to seek marketing assistance rather than tax breaks.
(NY VALUES! spoken like a true Rino Jim!)

Another Republican, Assemblywoman Mary Beth Walsh, of Ballston, said she doesn't see justification for a tax break, as Rivers appears to be doing well. Even if it were not, she said, the casino was aware of the competitive market when it agreed to the terms of doing business in the state; the nature of private industry is that it must succeed on its own.
(Spoken like a true Rino! So much for smaller less intrusive and less tax burdening conservative values NY Values!)

In nearly 14 months of operation, Rivers has grown to employ nearly 1,200 who are paid substantially more than the industry average. Hundreds of thousands of guests have gambled more than $1.3 billion on its gaming floors, and Rivers has paid the state, city and surrounding municipalities a $50 million one-time fee and more than $50 million more in the form of ongoing monthly, quarterly and annual taxes.

Eighty percent of those taxes go to the state and are earmarked for education aid above and beyond that which the state Legislature budgets. The rest stays in the Schenectady region.
(NY ALWAYS GETS THEIRS FIRST! scraps for the local municipalities.)

“It has made a positive impact in Schenectady,”
(So we don't help/reward businesses that employ high volume of people pay them above average for that industry wages that make a positive impact in the community we need that sweet tax revenue)
Steck said, adding that the help Rivers is seeking would boost its revenue, allowing it to make an even bigger positive impact.
(a Democrat that can think. There's hope for the left yet!)

Going for cross thread points... NY "conservatives"/"republicans" are Republican in name, liberal democrats in practice, far from being a "Republican" or "conservative" in the south. (Chalk one more reason up for running like the state was on fire.)

You would think... Republicans would come forward to poke Cuomo in the eyes and say you have our blessing and we will help by taking a 1 time or 1 year 10% tax reduction to see if it makes for more revenue... Nope. The party of low taxes and emphasis on business and the economy. Mirror Herr Cuomo.
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