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Old 09-21-2018, 03:07 PM
 
225 posts, read 81,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Eagle View Post
Why are people on here saying what we have now is good? Are they just avoiding all the people who are homeless or on foodstamps or even the people who are just one bad thing happening to them from losing all they have? Just because people who are poor are overweight does mean much. Poor people tend to eat fattening food because it is cheap and easy to get and that is only one thing what about where they live or what they drive?
I just think its important that any person in the US has food, a roof and access to basic medical services. This needs to be available without that person going into debt over it. Anyone who works 40 hours a week needs to, in addition, be able to support themselves to such things plus a car. Merit and free market can take it from there on upwards.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,052 posts, read 2,930,089 times
Reputation: 2492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewjdeg View Post
If the market price doesn't reflect the external costs to society then the market has failed.

What is this? Isn't the market a transaction between willing buyers and sellers? So when I buy a car from you as private party (huge market) do you (as seller) and me (as buyer) ever discuss -- hey Dave, how is this going to affect the society?

It's like me saying -- my JEEP failed to win the Indy500. This isn't JEEP's failure. It is rather my failure to
understand the race and have the correct expectations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowhound View Post
Exactly. It's human nature on so many levels where the idea of communism and socialism sound good on paper but fails in real life.
Which Communism / Socialism? Not Marx's or Lenin's.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
13,047 posts, read 12,471,759 times
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And so it went with capitalism on Oct. 24, 1929 when the stock market crashed, signaling the Great Depression had started. Capitalism did make a comeback. I wonder if socialism can do the same.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
13,047 posts, read 12,471,759 times
Reputation: 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odenwald View Post
I just think its important that any person in the US has food, a roof and access to basic medical services. This needs to be available without that person going into debt over it. Anyone who works 40 hours a week needs to, in addition, be able to support themselves to such things plus a car. Merit and free market can take it from there on upwards.
Sounds like you believe in human rights. But conservatives don't believe in any such thing. This is because it isn't an actual right when someone else has to sacrifice something to fulfill a basic human need or desire. Nobody does that for free all the time. Conservatives also don't believe there is any such thing as social justice. If you feel there is too much inequality in the world, then that is just too bad. Rich people suffer bad enough as it is from high taxes and heavy regulations upon their businesses. Poor people in their welfare state have it made with food stamps, subsidized housing and so on. But that is really how conservatives see the world.

Last edited by StillwaterTownie; 09-21-2018 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:06 AM
 
225 posts, read 81,133 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
Sounds like you believe in human rights. But conservatives don't believe in any such thing. This is because it isn't an actual right when someone else has to sacrifice something to fulfill a basic human need or desire. Nobody does that for free all the time. Conservatives also don't believe there is any such thing as social justice. If you feel there is too much inequality in the world, then that is just too bad. Rich people suffer bad enough as it is from high taxes and heavy regulations upon their businesses. Poor people in their welfare state have it made with food stamps, subsidized housing and so on. But that is really how conservatives see the world.
Human rights, social justice or whatever you want to call it. I call it common sense. I stand by these things because I am deeply convinced that, in the long run, this will make for a better and more worthy to live in society for everybody. And all I want to do is conserve what makes America a good country for its people. At the end of the day, this is whats important.

Think about it. It really is a necessesity not just for the individual, but for society. If these three basic provisions are not made, it will lead to social decay, rampant drugs and plague. If someone who works cannot afford these things themselves, society would need to step in and subsidize such a worker. This would be an unfair money transfer from the taxpayer to the worker's employer, who may forward that advantage to international investors and thus out of the country. It would also take away any motivation to get a job when you're at the bottom. To not establish a fair and sensible frame of law would be extremely non-conservative and unpatriotic!

Last edited by Odenwald; 09-22-2018 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Ubique
4,052 posts, read 2,930,089 times
Reputation: 2492
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
And so it went with capitalism on Oct. 24, 1929 when the stock market crashed, signaling the Great Depression had started. Capitalism did make a comeback. I wonder if socialism can do the same.

Actually, depressions are recessions are very good news for Capitalism. They weed out the weak and inefficient enterprises and those who survive are better off for it.

It's like saying -- I want to remove trial and tribulations for humans. As Darwin discovered (evolution works best in times of scarcity and hardship), thank God for trial, tribulations -- they are the basis of survival and evolution, aka progress.

Society's track record is very clear -- it thrived the less Govt interfered to shelter businesses from failure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
Sounds like you believe in human rights. But conservatives don't believe in any such thing. This is because it isn't an actual right when someone else has to sacrifice something to fulfill a basic human need or desire. Nobody does that for free all the time. Conservatives also don't believe there is any such thing as social justice. If you feel there is too much inequality in the world, then that is just too bad. Rich people suffer bad enough as it is from high taxes and heavy regulations upon their businesses. Poor people in their welfare state have it made with food stamps, subsidized housing and so on. But that is really how conservatives see the world.
Actually the terms -- conservatives and liberals - are switched, and both mean the exact opposite.

Liberals, in classical sense, have no liberal bones in them. They are all about an iron-fisted central government that is too powerful. This is a very old form of Government. It's very long and proven track record of progress or human rights is atrocious.

"Conservatives" - they represent the most cutting edge, innovative form of Govt in human history, a limited and constitutional Govt bound by check & balances, separation of powers, sovereignty of citizen over the Govt. Belief in a civil society, when free human beings transact and interact to the best of their self-interest, and fairness. Its track record is excellent in progress and human rights.
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:56 AM
 
26,710 posts, read 14,959,097 times
Reputation: 12549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odenwald View Post
I just think its important that any person in the US has food, a roof and access to basic medical services. This needs to be available without that person going into debt over it. Anyone who works 40 hours a week needs to, in addition, be able to support themselves to such things plus a car. Merit and free market can take it from there on upwards.
regardless of what you think, none of hose things are "rights" to be provided by someone elses labor.
And your desire to provide such by gunpoint, theft of money, threat of imprisonment, slavery etc. is pure evil.
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:58 AM
 
3,720 posts, read 1,667,677 times
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Daniel Ortega was the same way. He led the Sandanistas while wearing Gucci sunglasses.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:00 AM
 
26,710 posts, read 14,959,097 times
Reputation: 12549
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
And so it went with capitalism on Oct. 24, 1929 when the stock market crashed, signaling the Great Depression had started. Capitalism did make a comeback. I wonder if socialism can do the same.
That wasnt capitalism, that was govt meddling.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amer...eat_Depression
You should read Rothbards America's Great Depression to get some clarity on what really happened.
Quote:
Rothbard holds the interventionist policies of the Herbert Hoover administration responsible for magnifying the duration, breadth, and intensity of the Great Depression.[1] Rothbard explains the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which holds that government manipulation of the money supply sets the stage for the familiar "boom-bust" phases of the modern market. He then details the inflationary policies of the Federal Reserve from 1921 to 1929 as evidence that the depression was essentially caused not by speculation, but by government and central bank interference in the market.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:07 AM
 
26,710 posts, read 14,959,097 times
Reputation: 12549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Daniel Ortega was the same way. He led the Sandanistas while wearing Gucci sunglasses.
A look through the violent past of socialism and there are too many examples to list of a ruling class living in the lap of luxury while the peasantry is beaten, starved to death, jailed, murdered, etc.
You suppose Mao, Stalin,Pol Pot, et al ever went without?
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