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Old 10-05-2018, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,173,646 times
Reputation: 4590

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Of course not everyone is going to follow the NAP but the NAP also puts the same weight on your right to defend yourself and prepare yourself for possible victimization as well as accidents. That's something we don't have the right to do to the fullest extent under Statism. Not even close.
I am not trying to criticize the NAP as an idea, I am merely stating that to most people, the NAP isn't enough.


I primarily like the NAP, because I don't like most people and I want them to leave me alone. I am a natural-libertarian, because my whole manner is that of a libertarian. I recognize property rights innately. If that is yours, I do not touch it. And I am respectful of everyone.

But, I am also pretty anti-social. And I have immense contempt for the word "society". Anyone who utters that word I assume either wants something from me, or wants to control me.


The problem is, when I disagree with people, I simply pull back. If I don't like you, I just want to get away from you. If left unchecked, this process will continue until all I want to do is go live by myself in the woods.


So, not only am I a natural libertarian, I am also a natural secessionist. Which is part of the reason I have been trying to push people in that direction, practically since I came to this forum several years ago.


The natural state of man is that of tribalism, which consisted primarily of close relatives. It is actually very difficult to hold millions of people together under the same government. And to be honest with you, without government force, there could never be anything other than tribalism.

Thus, the NAP, in reality, would always and inevitably lead to the complete dissolution of society. Because it simply isn't sufficient. Not because it is flawed, but because people are flawed.


You continue to speak on principles and legality. I am speaking of human sentiment and emotions. You speak in cold and rational ways. But humans are highly irrational. You speak of how things ought to be, I speak of how things are.

 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:18 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,478,203 times
Reputation: 19722
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmccormick71 View Post
We have very little control over our lives and that's scary. We have no control over our mortality and that's terrifying.

So we pretend we have control. We tell ourselves that when other people get raped or murdered or robbed it's because of something THEY did. They went to the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person wearing the wrong thing and they behaved the wrong way and that's why the Bad Thing happened to them. If I don't do those wrong things, so nothing bad will happen to me!

Little old ladies get raped. Nuns get raped. BABIES get raped. It's not about how alluring they look in their wimples or diapers. Rape isn't about sex. It's about control and power.
Amen.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Homeless
17,717 posts, read 13,470,466 times
Reputation: 11993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
There seems to be a lot of controversy around this issue. Although there is little debate that women are not responsible for sexual assaults, do they have a duty to protect themselves? If so, how? Avoiding being alone? Not drinking to excess, avoiding skimpy clothing, what? Many individuals of both genders have expressed this opinion. And if she doesn't protect herself in whatever way is deemed necessary or fitting, is the perpetrator less at fault if an assault happens?
IMO, it depends who sexually assaulted her, some Joe on the street or someone with money who can afford too lawer his way out of it. Because in the end that’s what matters, we’ve all heard/read story about some frat boy who was found innocent for having sex with a girl, who was asking for it all because she was wearing a short dress, etc.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,528,391 times
Reputation: 29384
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber
Oh yea. When some skulking bipred male gets caught for disgusting conduct all manner of excuses come up. She "was "asking for it" by wearing certain clothing. getting fouled up at a party and passing out on a bed, all manner of trying to rationalize predatory behavior. That tells me one thing. They KNOW their behavior was WRONG but acted in a manner unbefitting anyway.


There's a caveat in totally wrong behavior. Choice. Like the saying goes "if you always tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said." If one does not act in an unbefitting manner they don't have to worry about excuses. One cannot stand before God and say I was following others examples to do thus. That will not do.


It matters not a rat turd in a tornado what a woman is wearing or how her inhibited by chemicals behavior is. Or what the plethora of other excuses for totally wrong behavior are. A real MAN doesn't need any excuses because he would not even think about that behavior nor would he tolerate it from others.
So if a woman is drunk to the point she blacks out and so does the guy and she wakes up to find she's had sex but remembers nothing and reports it as a rape, that's only the mans fault?

What about if she's so drunk that she's sitting on someones lap and grinding and then things are taken to the next step only she was really drunk and regrets it the next day. Is that only the man's fault?

Because you should hear what happens on college campuses all across the country if you think these situations are rare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowhound View Post
Common sense would dictate that women who have historically been abused by men and are physically smaller and have less strength, you better believe that if I had daughters I'd pound into their heads to use as much caution is possible..

Does things still happen, of course they can, but let's lower the chances if we can at all.

Saying this now equates to victim blaming and it really isn't if we're 100% honest about it. Taking precautions is better than not taking precautions that sentiment is in no way shape or form blaming the victim.
So would I, but it appears we're in the minority. Some just want a carte blanche policy that no matter what predicates sex, if the woman decides the next day she didn't consent, or doesn't remember anything, then it's rape.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:20 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,478,203 times
Reputation: 19722
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmccormick71 View Post
Sure they do. That's the point of this whole thread. Don't get drunk. Don't wear short skirts. Don't walk down a dark alley at night. Don't be alone with a man.

I'm not any more or less scared than anyone else. We're all scared of what we can't control and we all kid ourselves about how much control we have.
Who is walking down dark allies at night and why? Don't be alone with a man? We have to often. This isn't Saudi Arabia.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:23 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,478,203 times
Reputation: 19722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tencent View Post
This is akin to going into the Wild unarmed into bear/wolf territory and saying:

"I am human hear me ROAR".
"A Human should be able to walk freely in the Woods and not be accosted by Wild Wolves or Bears."
"Don't bother me and I won't bother you"
"Here I am going to cook this steak and you better stay away buddy or I'm gonna get mad!"

The man is subsequently eaten by a Grizzly Bear and his remains are taken away by hungry wolves and vultures.

What is the lesson here?

1) In general I respect mother nature. I live in human communities and I don't go into the Wild expecting a warm welcome.

2) If I were to go into the woods I would go with a tour guide and limit my visit to "safe areas".

3) If I were to go without a tour guide I would use the buddy system and carry the appropriate weaponry to defend myself

4) I would re-evaluate why exactly I'm going into the woods and what I hope to accomplish there. Can I get the same thing elsewhere in a safer place ? (i.e. - meditation)

Replace "Woods" with parties/shady bars and clubs. All of which where attendance is purely optional. All of which where a large quantity of these events of ambiguous consent occur.

The further humans stray from hunter gatherer instincts the more problems we will have. 100,000 years ago I am very sure Women were not eagerly looking for random parties to attend with strange Men they do not know. This facade of civilization - People need to awaken from it. We are primitive organisms in a dream world trying to make sense of it with a brain that evolved during times when large animals were still a widespread and regular threat.
So the entire world, including school, work, etc. is the same as a forest with Bears? If that is the case, do something about the bears. Because women need access to the world.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:29 PM
 
13,236 posts, read 9,861,721 times
Reputation: 14293
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1 View Post
You're missing my point and the point of the thread, which is asking if women have a duty to protect herself from being assaulted.

I gave specific instances where women might be letting their guard down and said they were not doing what they should to keep themselves safe. And your response is to ask if I want women to be accountable....for living life.

Are you suggesting women cannot live their lives without drinking until they lose their faculties or black out????? Because that is the ONLY situation I've referenced.
No of course not. But if they do, and just about everyone has done that once in their lives, either by intent or accidentally, that is not an invitation. It happens, and if someone is sexually assaulted when they're drunk, it is still the fault of the rapists, not the woman for not "keeping herself safe" or "doing what they should do".

Taking that tack, perhaps we should prevent men from drinking and partying altogether so they don't get themselves into situations where they may be tempted to rape an inebriated girl. Ridiculous, right? Yet you effectively ask women to do just that.

If everyone on this thread spending so much energy lecturing women about what they should and shouldn't do put the same effort into ways to stop assailants from assaulting people, we might actually frigging get somewhere with this.

What is so hard to fathom about changing the culture to put the onus on men not to assault drunk women?

It used to be acceptable for men to beat their wives/girlfriends. It is no longer so. It used to be okay to assault women if they "asked for it". There's still a great deal of that mentality around. Let's all decent people get together (and you are a decent person) and put the onus where it belongs, make it no longer so.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:30 PM
 
21,108 posts, read 13,478,203 times
Reputation: 19722
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1 View Post
You're missing my point and the point of the thread, which is asking if women have a duty to protect themselves from being assaulted.

I gave specific instances where women might be letting their guard down and said they were not doing what they should to keep themselves safe. And your response is to ask if I want women to be accountable....for living life.

Are you suggesting women cannot live their lives without drinking until they lose their faculties or black out????? Because that is the ONLY situation I've referenced.
If that was how the majority of rapes happen, you might have a point. But it isn't. You've built a strawman.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,528,391 times
Reputation: 29384
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
Who is walking down dark allies at night and why? Don't be alone with a man? We have to often. This isn't Saudi Arabia.
College campuses are filled with women who walk home alone at all hours. Some of them disappeared and still aren't found.

My kids always walked the girls home if they were going to be alone, but not every group is like that.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,528,391 times
Reputation: 29384
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
If that was how the majority of rapes happen, you might have a point. But it isn't. You've built a strawman.
So because the majority of assaults don't happen that way - it's an invalid point about whether women can do something to better protect themselves?
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