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Old 11-01-2018, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 1,999,881 times
Reputation: 2167

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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnamed View Post
That has been a hot topic in WA state. Legislature took a swag at fixing it by implementing a state wide property tax and capping local levies in order to fully fund education from the state level. It’s received a mixed response, teacher strikes, and now projected school deficits.
The changes in education funding here are intended to reduced disparity between districts, but do not much address overall quality of education. I think quality has been impacted by unionization. As OP notes, quality was better through the 1960s, and it was during the 1970s when the public sector started to unionize.

The Janus ruling will allow teachers to opt out of unions, and may have some impact, but it will be a long slow process.

OP does make an excellent point. We rarely hear education linked with income inequality. Almost always inequality is mentioned when arguing for tax increases, which is a poor way to address the problem.
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 1,999,881 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
It's certainly a piece of the puzzle. The liberal will merely say that we need to spend more money, but it seems to me that we've already tried that. The solution must lie elsewhere.
Exactly right. Per pupil education spending has doubled since 1970(inflation adjusted). In 2014, the US was 4th in k-12 spending, behind only Norway, Switzerland, and Austria. Yet in 2015, we ranked 38th (of 71 countries) in math according to the international PISA tests.

U.S. academic achievement lags that of many other countries

I remember back in 2008 there were some noises that Obama would be an 'education president,' but he did nothing. And Trump thus far has done nothing either. In fairness, it is probably something better handled at the state level.
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:19 PM
 
23,841 posts, read 14,963,353 times
Reputation: 12858
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
The changes in education funding here are intended to reduced disparity between districts, but do not much address overall quality of education. I think quality has been impacted by unionization. As OP notes, quality was better through the 1960s, and it was during the 1970s when the public sector started to unionize.

The Janus ruling will allow teachers to opt out of unions, and may have some impact, but it will be a long slow process.

OP does make an excellent point. We rarely hear education linked with income inequality. Almost always inequality is mentioned when arguing for tax increases, which is a poor way to address the problem.
Where do the teachers come from? Years ago, teachers came from the top 10% of their class, now they come from the bottom 10%.

How about class sizes?

Imo, society would be better off requiring more from the teaching educators business.

Many of the people in jail cannot read. From my reading, it cost 30K a year to keep a kid in jail. Ten thousand for schooling. Looks like smaller classes and better trained teachers are the way to go.

Years ago. John ********, then governor of Mo. promoted a program called Parents as teachers. When a person was expecting they contacted their local elementary school and were paired with a trained parent to help them learn about child development, etc. It was successful in my part of Missouri.

A friend is currently mentoring 2 under 18 year old moms. They quit school, know nothing about kids and do not work. The household consists on a grown mom, her 4 teenaged kids and their kids. It is all my friend can do to get them on birth control. One had her IUD removed because her boyfriend wanted another child before he left for prison.

What kind of schools or teachers will be able to remedy that start in life? And those girls are not unusual.

Last edited by crone; 11-01-2018 at 03:22 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:26 PM
 
4,541 posts, read 2,769,358 times
Reputation: 4921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Credentials are multiplying while skills are stagnant or falling. Just look at the PISA scores and standardized test scores.

This has been going on a long time starting with the SAT recentering in the 90s.
Ok, so we are assuming workers are getting more stupid, so much so that the stupid workers are collectively pulling down productivity? That still doesn't explain weak productivity growth in developed countries with higher PISA scores.
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,453 posts, read 9,315,996 times
Reputation: 22811
Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger View Post
100% parenting.
Not 100%. Probably like 50%

I don’t know what schools you attended, but anyone who went to bad public schools like me knows classroom disruptions are the reason the quality of education has gone done and good kids can’t even learn.

Teachers spend so much time policing the classroom and getting cussed out by students that there is no time for actual learning or teaching, and the folks who do graduate are 100% not prepared for collegiate coursework.

So I say it’s 50% parents who don’t give a crap and only use the public school system to babysit their children until they grow up to be ditch diggers, and 50% students who will be burger flippers in life so feel the need to disrupt the entire classroom and ruin it for the ones who actually want to learn.

Some kids are so smart they will still be successful with a subpar education from crappy public schools, but the vast majority won’t have a chance.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:13 PM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,226,261 times
Reputation: 7762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewjdeg View Post
Ok, so we are assuming workers are getting more stupid, so much so that the stupid workers are collectively pulling down productivity? That still doesn't explain weak productivity growth in developed countries with higher PISA scores.
Point taken that education is not the only input to productivity.

However unlike the size of the global labor force or the pace of technological change, improving education is something we have control over.

And regarding comparisons with other countries, I am more interested in the developing countries that have achieved big productivity increases by improving their educational systems.

It may very well be that education saturates as an input to productivity. However given the US's dismal performance education could be the low hanging fruit. We are probably compensating for our poor educational system in other areas which you have pointed out. And maybe the smattering of quality public schools and private schools supply a critical mass of talent, along with immigration brain drain, to keep the economy humming. That this only sharpens inequality is my point.

Many, many marginalized people in the US received awful educations, and they could have had better lives were our system not so dysfunctional. I think it's clear that education can increase human capital, and that quality education is available to the wealthy more than the poor. This worsens inequality, and yes in the aggregate diminishes output from what it could be (although other factors affect output).
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:17 PM
 
25,805 posts, read 16,451,635 times
Reputation: 15996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Not 100%. Probably like 50%

I don’t know what schools you attended, but anyone who went to bad public schools like me knows classroom disruptions are the reason the quality of education has gone done and good kids can’t even learn.

Teachers spend so much time policing the classroom and getting cussed out by students that there is no time for actual learning or teaching, and the folks who do graduate are 100% not prepared for collegiate coursework.

So I say it’s 50% parents who don’t give a crap and only use the public school system to babysit their children until they grow up to be ditch diggers, and 50% students who will be burger flippers in life so feel the need to disrupt the entire classroom and ruin it for the ones who actually want to learn.

Some kids are so smart they will still be successful with a subpar education from crappy public schools, but the vast majority won’t have a chance.
Classroom disruptions are parenting so yes, it’s all about parenting. Me disrupting a class was never an option for me...ever. Because my Dad was not a person any of me or my brothers wanted to face.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 1,999,881 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post
Where do the teachers come from? Years ago, teachers came from the top 10% of their class, now they come from the bottom 10%.

How about class sizes?

Imo, society would be better off requiring more from the teaching educators business.

Many of the people in jail cannot read. From my reading, it cost 30K a year to keep a kid in jail. Ten thousand for schooling. Looks like smaller classes and better trained teachers are the way to go.

Years ago. John ********, then governor of Mo. promoted a program called Parents as teachers. When a person was expecting they contacted their local elementary school and were paired with a trained parent to help them learn about child development, etc. It was successful in my part of Missouri.

A friend is currently mentoring 2 under 18 year old moms. They quit school, know nothing about kids and do not work. The household consists on a grown mom, her 4 teenaged kids and their kids. It is all my friend can do to get them on birth control. One had her IUD removed because her boyfriend wanted another child before he left for prison.

What kind of schools or teachers will be able to remedy that start in life? And those girls are not unusual.
Years ago there was a lady named Marva Collins who founded 'West Side Prep' in the heart of the Chicago ghetto. She was very demanding. There is also the story of Jaime Escalante who was successful at teaching math to impoverished Hispanic kids in L.A. So it can be done. It would take a lot of effort but would be worth it.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 1,999,881 times
Reputation: 2167
BTW this is not just a problem of places like Chicago and L.A. Years ago there was an excellent op-ed by a University of Washington professor in the Seattle Times.
The Seattle Times: Opinion: Calculus of mediocrity

He said that declining K-12 education had severely hampered him because many students needed remedial math before they could take basic science courses.
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Old 11-01-2018, 04:27 PM
 
23,841 posts, read 14,963,353 times
Reputation: 12858
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
BTW this is not just a problem of places like Chicago and L.A. Years ago there was an excellent op-ed by a University of Washington professor in the Seattle Times.
The Seattle Times: Opinion: Calculus of mediocrity

He said that declining K-12 education had severely hampered him because many students needed remedial math before they could take basic science courses.
Love Marva Collins. She proved test score and zip codes have nothing to do with each other. Caring, trained and respectful faculty can teach. The problem in education is not the kids.
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