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Old 11-20-2018, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,429 posts, read 2,718,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
The humanities and social sciences are completely fixated on this claptrap. This Twitter feed has been harvesting articles and dissertations emerging from the bowels of the humanities and social sciences for some time now. There must be thousands of papers at this point. It isn't hard to explain why this is happening.
I think I might have an explanation. I'm not going to deny that you can find some genuine examples of "claptrap" in dissertations and peer-reviewed papers, but I would suggest that the amount of actual claptrap is far, far less than you are claiming. Specialized papers in professional fields can, indeed, appear to be ridiculous at first glance. And that it what fuels these incessant claims about the useless nature of liberal education. The problem is that a first glance is all that these papers ever get from the general public. IF one were to take the time to actually read the alleged claptrap, I can almost guarantee you'd find that a significant percentage of the seemingly ridiculous papers are not so absurd as they appear. I can say this because I sometimes personally spot-check these ridiculed articles.

Here is one example: I followed the twitter link you posted and the first post I found was a November 19 tweet from Rolf Degen: He says: "Paper in professional journal in all seriousness suggests that pretend play and fantasy may be bad for children's intellect." And then he gives a link to this paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdep.12314

If you read the paper (or even just read the abstract), you will find that the authors are not just a bunch of goofy idiots. I might not ultimately agree with their conclusions, but they do offer some insights that ought to be taken seriously.

Obviously this is just one random example - the first thing I happen to see on the link you provided - but I've done this sort of thing often enough to feel fairly confident that the majority of the papers that get ridiculed by the general public do not really deserve this fate. The people dishing out the ridicule are, in most cases, just making fools of themselves. They are attacking things that they no nothing about.

Quote:
The folks who push this piffle make it easier for right-wingers to devalue a liberal arts education. It would be much more difficult to disparage it if our humanities folks were putting out legitimate research that served the public good. When they don't...when they publish gibberish-laden political advocacy masquerading as scholarship, the right-wingers can easily point to it as another reason that universities should become four-year technical school producing workers. What a shame.
I certainly do agree that liberals find an assortment of ways to shoot themselves in the foot and make themselves easy targets for right-wing attacks. Too much "PC policing" for example. Some liberals are just as bad as some conservatives when it comes to critical thinking and seeking common ground on which find room for compromise.

Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 11-20-2018 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 11-20-2018, 09:08 AM
 
14,899 posts, read 8,514,142 times
Reputation: 7327
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
If liberals created this mess, why is that other wealthy, Western countries, all of which are far more politically liberal than the US, haven't seen the continued decline in educational outcomes you speak of? Do they have consistently higher educational outcomes than does the US -- the most politically conservative country in the West?

American conservatives really, really need to experience living outside of the US. It would be an invaluable educational experience for them.
Well, first, I wasn’t aware of the fact that only US liberals have traveled/resided abroad.

In any case, let me correct a misunderstanding. I do not directly equate “liberalism” (from a purely ideological perspective) to poor educational outcomes. Obviously, there is a very substantial leftist majority within academia whose educational achievements are quite high. What I am claiming is that there has been a steady decline in the educational outcomes of US students, as compared to other western countries, but even more so, compared to many Asian countries. There must be a cause for this, no?

Now, given the significant left wing dominance within academia, to which no one could honestly argue, it’s certainly not conservative values or policies responsible for this decline. So where does that lead us? Liberal policies, and approaches to education.... from K-12, as well as higher education.

What I believe to be the root cause of this decline is in the slow but steady shift in focus and priority from pure academics, toward greater focus on social justice issues and political correctness ... which BTW, dovetails quite comfortably with the theme of this thread.

I further believe that a significant factor in all of this lies squarely in the “intolerance” of competing opinions from the leftist ideologues who totally reject and drown out such opinions, most often through accusations of intolerance, racism, bigotry, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. It’s the well honed tactic of leftists, in play for quite a long time now. If you don’t believe as I do .... if you don’t think as I do ... you must be suffering such prejudices that causes you to think/believe wrongly.

The problem here can be found in the old adage “if everyone is thinking the same things, somebody isn’t thinking”.

And this is where we are now (always been that way to a certain extent, but far greater nowadays) ... education today is greatly more geared toward teaching students WHAT to think, rather than HOW to think. And if you aren’t thinking, you aren’t learning.
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:20 AM
 
14,899 posts, read 8,514,142 times
Reputation: 7327
Oh yes ... another thread pointed to this, but it’s a great example of what is happening to our college students, who are being treated and handled like 5 year olds. This isn’t education, and if there is any greater suspect for the cause of declining educational outcomes ... I haven’t found one.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/leeds-...ening-capitals

These students are being so mollycoddled.... so much attention to their NEED for safe spaces, sensitivity training, political correctness, gender confusion, and just outright lunacy .... there isn’t time for actual academics. But more importantly, they are being conditioned to fail, due to a trained psychological inability to cope with common challenges we all must deal with effectively as adults.

To be quite frank, we are creating an environment that promotes “arrested development”, where these young adults are “protected” from the realities of life, and consequently, they won’t know how to deal with the basic challenges of adult life, or the adversity surely waiting for them.

When they finally meet the real world, absent of those “safe spaces” ... they’re gonna crash and burn at worst, and at best, be disillusioned and unhappy with life in general, which will manifest in all sorts of immature behaviors, and negative consequences, for themselves, and society in general.

Last edited by GuyNTexas; 11-20-2018 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
19,528 posts, read 22,407,589 times
Reputation: 24339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
When I was growing up a patriotic boomer in the 50's nobody had to tell us the USA was the one exceptional nation on the planet, nothing else like it. We just knew that, and it was true. Where conservatism went off the rails is we thought capitalism and exceptionalism were so obvious we ASSUMED the whole population would see that like we did. Not so,as we see today. The leftists and socialists INSURED the young heads full of mush seeking a higher education would only be given the liberal point of view whenever possible, starting in the 60's. So today we have high level schools that started out as bastions of Christianity who will shout down anything biblical in a nanosecond. Almost none that started out judeo-Christian have ended up that way they are secular and proud of it. So we see the fruits of their twisted dark views alive and well in the young and younger today. They listen to CNN and NPR and think they get the news. Patton, Eisenhower, and my uncle who was a flight engineer on a B-29 wouldn't recognize this place today. It makes me sick to see what is tolerated and encouraged by leftists today. Flag burning, open revolt, harassment of any conservative officials.....it will not end well. Those who though the USA wouldn't last and would eventually implode from within may be correct in the end..........what a sad thought..........
Well... my son is in engineering dreaming up ways to automate jobs you had in the 50’s.

It’s called survival of the fittest. Suck it up, buttercup.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,801,430 times
Reputation: 11115
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
Your post exemplifies much of the problem. There are multiple variables that explain why some other countries immersed in this belief system still manage to be largely successful with their education systems. One factor is the pay and esteem that are given to teachers in these societies. Another is that they are less prone to educational fads, as we are here. Another, uncomfortable one for some of you is homogeneity. A very heterogeneous society like ours, which tends less and less to attract the most intelligent people to teaching and which is prone to buying into the latest educational fads is of course going to lag behind Finland or Japan in education, regardless if Finland begins embracing and implementing "SJW" dogma.
I couldn't agree more with your first two points, which are worthy of extensive discussion. But I disagree with your third point, and discomfort has nothing to do with the reason why.

As someone who grew up in another wealthy, Western country (and whose parents grew up in yet another), I disagree with your third point, because it's inaccurate in a number of cases. It's a copout that exemplifies much of the problem.

The fact is that Canada and Australia both have much higher percentages of foreign-born residents/citizens than does the US. In terms of diversity, a city like Detroit, for example -- one of the largest in the US and where I lived for 14 years -- doesn't come to a city like, say, my hometown of Toronto, Ontario. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing; I'm simply stating fact.

The UK is homogeneous? Since when? Ever been to the massive city of London? Birmingham? Leeds? Glasgow? As for powerhouse Germany, one might have correctly considered it "homegeneous" in 1978; certainly not in 2018.

And, yet, Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany consistently have considerably better educational outcomes than does the US.

Like I said in an earlier post, living in another Western country, even for just a couple of years, would be a tremendously educational experience for many (conservative) Americans.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:13 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,801,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabianhorsebreeder View Post
I agree. I'll also argue that other first world countries don't codify it's young people, e.g. safe spaces, no testing because it might upset students, grading students on what they turn in, not what they feel they are entitled to.
Yes, you might argue that. But you'd be wrong.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,429 posts, read 2,718,831 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
These students are being so mollycoddled.... so much attention to their NEED for safe spaces, sensitivity training, political correctness, gender confusion, and just outright lunacy .... there isn’t time for actual academics. But more importantly, they are being conditioned to fail, due to a trained psychological inability to cope with common challenges we all must deal with effectively as adults.

To be quite frank, we are creating an environment that promotes “arrested development”, where these young adults are “protected” from the realities of life, and consequently, they won’t know how to deal with the basic challenges of adult life, or the adversity surely waiting for them.
I agree that there seems to be a tendency to go overboard with PC. People really do need to "lighten up" a bit on this. And my gut instincts lead me to feel that we can, indeed, go overboard with policies aimed at minimizing discomfort to highly sensitive people. The idea, for example, that an audience should refrain from clapping and cheering because some people might be oversensitive to noise is an example of what I would call going overboard. We should encourage creative thinking about ways to minimize unnecessary discomfort for vulnerable people, but the answer should not always be that the entire population has to walk on eggshells everywhere they go.

But there is a flip side. Some people really are harassed and, too often, find themselves in situation where they are literally not physically safe. Women have lived with this to varying degrees since the beginning of history and it is not acceptable. LGBTQ people often confront this at an even higher level of threat, so safe spaces make sense. (Especially once you understand what a safe space is actually meant to be.) No one should have to tolerate harassment and physical danger just for simply being who they are.

I know it's fun for certain people to make fun of "sensitivity training" but the reality of most sensitivity training is really just common sense politeness and respect for a diverse population of people. Some people are so full of anger, jealousy, and prejudice that it seems they just can't help but act like anal sphincters. Realistically, there may not be much we can do about them. But there are a significant number of people who really could be more sensible and respectful if they simply came to realize the types of harm they cause. In other words, they cause harm through ignorance, rather than out of conscious intent or uncontrollable compulsion. Again, I'm not talking about learning to walk on eggshells for fear of possibly offending some sensitive person. We are talking about stuff that enlightened minds would easily recognize at just plain logic and polite respect. Someone who brags about grabbing random women by their private parts, for example, is someone who could potentially benefit from sensitivity training (unless they fall in the compulsively anal-sphincter-ish category). Another simple example is referring to someone by the gender identity that they obviously want to identify as. Honest mistakes can easily happen here, and that is no big deal, but when you know what the person wants and you purposefully continue to use the opposite pronoun because you "don't like that sorta thing," then you are just plain and simply being rude.

Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 11-21-2018 at 06:53 AM..
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:42 PM
 
2,448 posts, read 884,475 times
Reputation: 2421
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
I couldn't agree more with your first two points, which are worthy of extensive discussion. But I disagree with your third point, and discomfort has nothing to do with the reason why.

As someone who grew up in another wealthy, Western country (and whose parents grew up in yet another), I disagree with your third point, because it's inaccurate in a number of cases. It's a copout that exemplifies much of the problem.

The fact is that Canada and Australia both have much higher percentages of foreign-born residents/citizens than does the US. In terms of diversity, a city like Detroit, for example -- one of the largest in the US and where I lived for 14 years -- doesn't come to a city like, say, my hometown of Toronto, Ontario. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing; I'm simply stating fact.

The UK is homogeneous? Since when? Ever been to the massive city of London? Birmingham? Leeds? Glasgow? As for powerhouse Germany, one might have correctly considered it "homegeneous" in 1978; certainly not in 2018.

And, yet, Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany consistently have considerably better educational outcomes than does the US.

Like I said in an earlier post, living in another Western country, even for just a couple of years, would be a tremendously educational experience for many (conservative) Americans.
I wouldn't point to any of those countries as exemplars of academic excellence. It's no accident that the best countries attract the smartest people to teaching, pay them well and base educational systems upon sound science and bedrock principles that have proven to work. It's also no accident that those countries tend to be homogenous.

It doesn't matter much, anyways. Public education in the United States is doomed. I see it from the inside. For the reasons above and:

- increased violence against teachers and worsening school environments, which is tied to...
- the feminization of the profession, which makes it less and less appealing for many men and because it has led to an ever-increasing focus upon feelings, school as a therapeutic vehicle ("trauma-informed care" is the new buzzword) and relaxation of discipline.
- worthless teacher education programs that get worse and worse and do not remotely prepare candidates for what they will face in their classrooms.
- teachers' unions (I'm a member of AFT) that are too focused on what is good for the wallets of its members, maintaining the status quo and political advocacy rather than what is good for public education.
- the proliferation of the "school is here to get me a job" mindset. It's a fantastic way to create generations of stupid people who have nothing interesting to say about anything of consequence. In other words, modern America.
- crappy administrative leadership, often composed of former, mediocre teachers who found a way to stay in the industry while getting out of the classroom. In no other sector I can think of does anyone hire a person to lead a couple hundred employees who has zero experience leading other adults.

I believe in public education in theory, but in reality, my advice to people who can afford it is to either homeschool your children or find a good private school that will not tolerate criminal miscreants ruining the education of other students and hires outstanding teachers who know their content areas inside and out.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:48 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,403,072 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
When I was growing up a patriotic boomer in the 50's nobody had to tell us the USA was the one exceptional nation on the planet, nothing else like it. We just knew that, and it was true. Where conservatism went off the rails is we thought capitalism and exceptionalism were so obvious we ASSUMED the whole population would see that like we did. Not so,as we see today. The leftists and socialists INSURED the young heads full of mush seeking a higher education would only be given the liberal point of view whenever possible, starting in the 60's. So today we have high level schools that started out as bastions of Christianity who will shout down anything biblical in a nanosecond. Almost none that started out judeo-Christian have ended up that way they are secular and proud of it. So we see the fruits of their twisted dark views alive and well in the young and younger today. They listen to CNN and NPR and think they get the news. Patton, Eisenhower, and my uncle who was a flight engineer on a B-29 wouldn't recognize this place today. It makes me sick to see what is tolerated and encouraged by leftists today. Flag burning, open revolt, harassment of any conservative officials.....it will not end well. Those who though the USA wouldn't last and would eventually implode from within may be correct in the end..........what a sad thought..........
1. Blind patriotism such as "the USA is the one exceptional nation on the planet" is and always has been arrogant as it is small-minded and ignorant.

2. Sure, conservatives: go ahead and avoid all those "liberal" institutions of higher education. Don't become doctors, lawyers, politicians, electrical engineers, scientists, software programmers, civil engineers, architects, investment bankers, etc... Just stay in your menial, low-wage jobs and leave the big stuff to the liberals. See how that works out for you.
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,801,430 times
Reputation: 11115
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
I wouldn't point to any of those countries as exemplars of academic excellence. It's no accident that the best countries attract the smartest people to teaching, pay them well and base educational systems upon sound science and bedrock principles that have proven to work. It's also no accident that those countries tend to be homogenous.
What experience have you had with the education systems of those countries? Unbelievable.


U.S. academic achievement lags that of many other countries

Last edited by newdixiegirl; 11-22-2018 at 07:40 AM..
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