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Old 11-29-2018, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,392,411 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
Yes the might makes right system.
Might makes right is false as it assumes the strongest persevere.

In reality the weakest who have the ability to cooperate with each other overcome the strong to survive.
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Old 11-29-2018, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,568,094 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by phma View Post
I disagree somewhat.

People are herd animals. Americans can be individuals with rights in the herd and as individuals can join together or not through the free association protection guaranteed them in the constitution to keep government in check. Both as individuals or as a group. The individual can be a grain of sand and a part of the beach at the same time. Its about freedom of choice.
Not so sure I agree -herd animals stick together, all the time.

I think we're social animals - we like to be around each other, but we also like privacy.
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Old 11-29-2018, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,392,411 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Not so sure I agree -herd animals stick together, all the time.

I think we're social animals - we like to be around each other, but we also like privacy.
Privacy is different from individualism.

Humans have a natural tendency to operate based on mutual aid.
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:13 AM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,416,511 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallbuilder View Post
The whole point of America is that it's every man for himself. The reason our ancestors traveled here was to get rich and be free. They did not immigrate here to work for "good of society." You can immigrate to Cuba if that's your goal. Personally, I am business for myself. The whole reason why human civilization advanced is because people wanted to advance their own self-interest. Think about it: some caveman invented a spear because he wanted to eat mammoths.
That has real negatives when taken too far in a large society.

Yes, you want people to have positive incentives aligned with their self interest, but you do also want to have something called social capital. A dog-eat-dog world where it's everyone for themselves is a pretty brutal place to be, and there is no reason we have to be so extreme about it.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Madison, WI
5,298 posts, read 2,341,900 times
Reputation: 1227
It's not so much every man for himself as it is every person being free from the will of the collective and having choice in their life.

The old way is that the majority, or a ruler that the majority likes, imposes their will on society. The idea that everyone should be left to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they aren't doing harm, was the new and radical idea. Many believe we need to go back to the old ways of a ruling elite planning society, because they want more control over what other people decide to do with their lives.

Individualism isn't just about dog eat dog, and collectivism isn't just about working together. People will work together either way. The real divide is over letting people choose how they work together, or having a central power impose their plan on us for our own good, supposedly.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,422 posts, read 9,287,588 times
Reputation: 22780
Individualist?

Meh, an argument can be made that no other country practices nepotism, favoritism, and cronyism better than America.

You might climb the social ladder alone, but once you’re at the top you might meet some beneficial friends.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,392,411 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
That has real negatives when taken too far in a large society.

Yes, you want people to have positive incentives aligned with their self interest, but you do also want to have something called social capital. A dog-eat-dog world where it's everyone for themselves is a pretty brutal place to be, and there is no reason we have to be so extreme about it.
I’d take it further and say cooperation is a more natural state of humans than competition.

We live and survive by mutual Aid.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,568,094 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Privacy is different from individualism.

Humans have a natural tendency to operate based on mutual aid.
No, but I'm saying that humans are social animals, not herd animals.

Humans also have a natural tendency to operate based on individual motives
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,013 posts, read 47,448,627 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
I hate when people say that America is "too invidualistic"
Not sure how I would feel about it. I never heard anyone say it, and probably never will.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:57 AM
 
Location: IL
1,874 posts, read 813,705 times
Reputation: 1133
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
It's not so much every man for himself as it is every person being free from the will of the collective and having choice in their life.

The old way is that the majority, or a ruler that the majority likes, imposes their will on society. The idea that everyone should be left to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they aren't doing harm, was the new and radical idea. Many believe we need to go back to the old ways of a ruling elite planning society, because they want more control over what other people decide to do with their lives.

Individualism isn't just about dog eat dog, and collectivism isn't just about working together. People will work together either way. The real divide is over letting people choose how they work together, or having a central power impose their plan on us for our own good, supposedly.
best post here right on
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