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The facts are not on your side. In the case of Houthis control (which will never happen) in what way will Iran control the Red Sea?
I happen to believe that the Houthi fighters (not the people of course) are being funded by Iran. Iran is stirring the pot throughout the already volatile region. I know you believe Iran is a functioning democracy. I am not going to disabuse you of this belief so I won't even try.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
This thread has degenerated and rational discussion is impossible. I'm sorry I opened it.
I don't agree with you. I believe it has shaped up well, considering as well as it gives people food for thought, when they look at their own situation close to home. Can the tide turn? Yes it can, by those we have elected as representatives to insure our interests and sustain our freedoms.
Your position is "These people are desperately poor and yet they reproduce eight children. There is no economic activity to speak of. The main specialty appears to be inter-tribal warfare. To this the question, why can't they stop fighting themselves?
So much misery. Yet people unwilling to help themselves."
__________
As I pointed out in another post, your are not alone in your summation.
"Resentment, envy and a sense of entitlement have combined with the lack of unity to produce Yemen that is a nation in name only. Few others in the region have much sympathy for the Yemenis who are seen as the main cause of their own problems and the main obstacle to solving them. Since that is all you have to work with it is no wonder that Yemen came to be such a perennial disaster area."
"Even as liberalizing economic policies pushed by international financial institutions promised stabilization and economic growth, their prescription to decrease government salaries and gradually eliminate fuel and grain subsidies provoked political backlash and were extremely unpopular among ordinary Yemenis who were reliant on the salaries and subsidies for survival.
<snip>Economic challenges like youth unemployment, uneven regional development, food insecurity, an extensive patronage system, and an over-reliance on oil for government revenue existed before the 2011 uprising and before the current war."
So there we have their entitlements and the Arab Spring, with the youth riots 'we want jobs'. Their government is in control of their productivity. If I have that wrong, which very well could be, lets discuss.
More from Yemen before the war ...
Social fabric
The war has only worsened some of the economic problems laid out above. Yet, as analyst Peter Salisbury points out, “The sheer strength of Yemen’s social fabric has long baffled aid workers. Most developmental metrics have forecast of famine for years. But Yemeni families and communities have been a safety net in and of themselves, somehow preventing outright catastrophe despite constant strain.”As Salisbury describes, the economic struggles of the past decades bear testament to the strength of the social safety net that has prevented outright disaster. But this support system is no longer strong enough to stave off collapse. As one Yemeni development expert pointed out in a recent interview, “The worst effect of this war is the damage to the social fabric.”
The family unit --- has been the safety net. Imagine that as we compare the u.s. social fabric.
My position is ... without growth through the births there is no economic growth to sustain a country. A country needs its people who will produce. Its a numbers game --- out of 8, there is a greater chance that 4 of them go on to create wealth. (if we are looking at children as if that is all there is to 'em) If I have that wrong, which very well could be, lets discuss.
As I pointed out to you through stats in another thread --- 2 births per woman does not create a sustaining society. Mortality rates, pretty much puts a damper on that idea. The u.s. doesn't even want immigration to grow the economy, so there's that.
Tribal mentality in Yemen ...
"This whole "nation" idea is still looked on with some suspicion by many in the region." ~ The Perennial Disaster ~ So there's that.
The largest employer in the u.s. is the government and the government doesn't produce anything and is a strain on the private industries that produce the countries wealth. The government in Yemen reduced and/or stopped paying their employees ... which is a contributing factor in the famine, as well as, the increase of costs to foods.
Starving people to death ... worse kind of warfare, ever! Peace talks, making agreements and sticking to them, could end this.
You’re nuts, the Iranians have zero control over the Houthis, your desperate conspiracy theories to justify mass genocide don’t make you look good.
RIGHT! - Iran has zero control over the Houthis ..... which is why ONLY Iran can negotiate peace in Yemen. Exactly who do you think has been supplying all those Ballistic Missiles and weapons to the impoverished Houthis? That supply chain has kept this Civil War going since 2015 against almost all the Arab powers + aid from Pakistan, USA, Egypt and a few others. The only Nation I'm aware of that is supplying the Houthis with arms OTHER THAN IRAN is Qatar (who is becoming more allied with Iranian Revolutionary Guards).
The United Nations deserves praise for brokering the cease-fire. But the deal would not have been possible without the American coercion of Saudi Arabia, which has for most of the past four years led a coalition of Arab states in a sustained bombing campaign against the Houthis. While the Saudis support the Yemeni government, their main goal is to repulse Iran’s growing support for the Houthis. Any hope of a lasting peace in Yemen rests on ending this proxy war.
It falls to the UN to press Tehran to stop backing the Houthi rebellion, or at least lead the rebels toward a permanent bargain with the government.
This "war" in Yemen began in 2015 in earnest, but the killings, drone strikes and troops began in 2011.
The famine is due to lack of water - they have quit growing food crops so they can grow the Qat (Khat) that almost all are addicted to. Drug addiction is a big part of their problem - along with 46% of the population age 15 & under.
But hey ....... it's so much Kewler to Blame President Trump for everything wrong in the world.
Including Yemen.
I happen to believe that the Houthi fighters (not the people of course) are being funded by Iran. Iran is stirring the pot throughout the already volatile region. I know you believe Iran is a functioning democracy. I am not going to disabuse you of this belief so I won't even try.
It is a proxy-war my friend. There are foreigners arming/supplying/financing both sides. And that includes the United States.
None of the foreign players care whatsoever about the people of Yemen. Obama bombed Yemen for years, and Trump is selling a hundred billion dollars worth of weapons to Saudi Arabia so that Saudi Arabia can bomb Yemen.
Why? Because it is in our "national interests". Iran is acting in its national interests. Saudi Arabia is acting in its national interests. Russia is acting in its national interests.
There are no good guys, only bad guys.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 12-16-2018 at 03:41 PM..
Social fabric
The war has only worsened some of the economic problems laid out above. Yet, as analyst Peter Salisbury points out, “The sheer strength of Yemen’s social fabric has long baffled aid workers. Most developmental metrics have forecast of famine for years. But Yemeni families and communities have been a safety net in and of themselves, somehow preventing outright catastrophe despite constant strain.”As Salisbury describes, the economic struggles of the past decades bear testament to the strength of the social safety net that has prevented outright disaster. But this support system is no longer strong enough to stave off collapse. As one Yemeni development expert pointed out in a recent interview, “The worst effect of this war is the damage to the social fabric.”
The family unit --- has been the safety net. Imagine that as we compare the u.s. social fabric.
*************** My position is ... without growth through the births there is no economic growth to sustain a country. A country needs its people who will produce. Its a numbers game --- out of 8, there is a greater chance that 4 of them go on to create wealth. (if we are looking at children as if that is all there is to 'em) If I have that wrong, which very well could be, lets discuss.
As I pointed out to you through stats in another thread --- 2 births per woman does not create a sustaining society. Mortality rates, pretty much puts a damper on that idea. The u.s. doesn't even want immigration to grow the economy, so there's that.
Tribal mentality in Yemen ...
"This whole "nation" idea is still looked on with some suspicion by many in the region." ~ The Perennial Disaster ~ So there's that.
The largest employer in the u.s. is the government and the government doesn't produce anything and is a strain on the private industries that produce the countries wealth. The government in Yemen reduced and/or stopped paying their employees ... which is a contributing factor in the famine, as well as, the increase of costs to foods.
Starving people to death ... worse kind of warfare, ever! Peace talks, making agreements and sticking to them, could end this.
One should go back to the 1940's. The expulsion of entrepreneurial Jews in 1949-52 in Operation Magic Carpet (link) didn't help. Excerpt from article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Airlines Blog
n 1949, the world was continuing to recover from the end of one of the most horrific wars in human history. After the horrors of the Holocaust, Jewish refugees scattered throughout the world were looking to start over in Israel, but the process was not easy. Not only did many groups face logistical challenges, but they also faced a great deal of violence. In addition to Europe, many lesser known Jewish communities resided in the Middle East, in predominantly Arab countries. With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, many of them were facing real danger and had to flee. Some 850,000 Jews had to escape from various countries around the Middle East, making their way to Israel in unorthodox ways.
For about 49,000 Yemenite Jews, help would come from an unlikely place – Alaska Airlines.
Persecuting and kicking out Jews in the Arab world, and Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia, never ended well for the persecutors. The persecuted, in these cases, did just fine since they had the real talent.
Sometimes I wonder if some of these people posting here are old people who are starting to lose it, their reading ability is lacking that's for sure. Don't take it serious, they feed on lies.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
One should go back to the 1940's. The expulsion of entrepreneurial Jews in 1949-52 in Operation Magic Carpet (link) didn't help. Excerpt from article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Airlines Blog
n 1949, the world was continuing to recover from the end of one of the most horrific wars in human history. After the horrors of the Holocaust, Jewish refugees scattered throughout the world were looking to start over in Israel, but the process was not easy. Not only did many groups face logistical challenges, but they also faced a great deal of violence. In addition to Europe, many lesser known Jewish communities resided in the Middle East, in predominantly Arab countries. With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, many of them were facing real danger and had to flee. Some 850,000 Jews had to escape from various countries around the Middle East, making their way to Israel in unorthodox ways.
For about 49,000 Yemenite Jews, help would come from an unlikely place – Alaska Airlines.
Persecuting and kicking out Jews in the Arab world, and Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia, never ended well for the persecutors. The persecuted, in these cases, did just fine since they had the real talent.
You're basing this argument on an intelligence factor ...
They were expelled. (I can go back farther than 1949 with Israel, does the names Abram and Sara ring a bell?) The persecuted in this case did just fine, because they not only had the resources, they were intelligent enough to know how to utilize them. Some of the Jewish from the Holocaust also moved to the u.s. Yemenis, can't move here. It's katy bar the door in the u.s.
When a government controls supply and demand, it controls the country's resources, the people have to adapt to that. They are not being run off, or out of their lands; they are working with the land that has been dealt to them. The government continued to increased their subsidizes, why? Because of the riots, the government thought that would shut them up. The riots were because of 'unemployment'.
People want to live they don't want to just survive. Even Yemenis.
What they have to work with --- they have long had political instability. The main source of revenue is oil and gas. Most of its citizens are employed in agriculture and herding. Yemen's agricultural products include grains, fruits, vegetables, coffee and livestock and poultry. Rural economies were increasingly dependent on urban wealth: while before agriculture and remittances had sustained rural communities. (herders were doing, okay producing & taking care of business) Since the war, they haven't been able to plant crops.
Israel in 1949 population grew 62%; 38% of that migration, I'm guessing because of those fleeing other countries and making their way to ... What condition of the country did they migrate into? I'm sure Israel had water. It's great that Alaska Airlines helped the Yemenite Jews, leave Aden, Yemen ... however, they had help.
From the looks of things, Yemenis are on their own. (Old City of Sana'a)
You're basing this argument on an intelligence factor ...
They were expelled.
One of the pet theories about Jewish intelligence (which over the world average is only about 10% if that) is that the ones who migrated as the warning bells began ringing were brighter than the ones who were led like sheep to the slaughter. But Jews are not that much more intelligent than everyone else; just harder working, more organized and more dedicated to family and education. Those are choices anyone can make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Israel in 1949 population grew 62%; 38% of that migration, I'm guessing because of those fleeing other countries and making their way to ... What condition of the country did they migrate into? I'm sure Israel had water. It's great that Alaska Airlines helped the Yemenite Jews, leave Aden, Yemen ... however, they had help.
From the looks of things, Yemenis are on their own. (Old City of Sana'a)
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"It Can't Rain All The Time"
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15,754 posts, read 7,588,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
One of the pet theories about Jewish intelligence (which over the world average is only about 10% if that) is that the ones who migrated as the warning bells began ringing were brighter than the ones who were led like sheep to the slaughter. But Jews are not that much more intelligent than everyone else; just harder working, more organized and more dedicated to family and education. Those are choices anyone can make.
Yemenis are not migrating. (may be they should be) The flow of labor migration to and from Saudi Arabia, Oman and other Gulf States made up the bulk of the Yemenis family budget. Which came to a halt (there goes the family budget) in 1990 shortly after north and south Yemen’s unification. The country is divided between urban and rural lines. Before 1998 rural (agriculture and remittances) sustained its community and urban poverty had dropped from 32.2 to 20.7 percent. I don't know about you, but I see people that are hard working farmers, where as the fruits of their labor was doing its part in sustaining an economically strained country. After the discovery of oil, however ... all of that changed.
Social economics and culture ...
When I'm looking at countries in the middle east, I see the u.s. 250 years ago. The middle east is like the land that time forgot. However, it is what it is and evolution takes time and nothing evolves over night. With that said, large families were prevalent in the u.s., as well, and not that long ago either. My father (late 1800's and early 1900's) was one of a dozen kids and my grandmother was one of nine. The common denominator they both share other than coming from large families is farming. My grandmother was raised on a southern farm and my father a northern one. Knowing this as I do I look at agriculture and its yields to our/their economic development. Along with the families that help make that happen.
The huge difference between the u.s. and Yemen is the strong economics in the u.s. So that when our social lives and culture makes an evolutionary change, it's like a ripple in a small pond, seen not felt. However, in a country like Yemen a social change in that country, will yield an economic disaster.
My grandmother I don't think she graduated high school, I could be wrong, as that was something that never came up in conversation. Her sisters married young and they had children ... which in turn did what? Farming ... or rather marry a farmer. My father at age 18 joined the Army, when growing up though he did work the farm, so did the other eleven children. That was their life and that is what they knew to do ... but children, not everyone is born of the same mind as the other. Not everyone born wanted to stay and inherit the farm or buy one of their own to have.
The young adults in Yemen leaving the life of sheep herder to go live in urban poverty. A social shift between urban and rural does not always lead to good things. In the case of Yemen it lead to numerous protests by the young adults all looking for jobs, where there wasn't any jobs to begin with. The men and women in Yemen continue to believe in large families. Taboos and misconceptions puts any form of family planning on the back burner of life and how to live it, because the social norms have yet to evolve. The females continue to marry young (like in the late 1800's early 1900's of the u.s.) and education of women is seemingly unimportant to them. (why make that change anyway)
With the oil (depleting resource) being the major source of revenue for the country, whose government has yet to enact an income tax, but continues to subsidize it citizens through oil profits, what good is an education? The choices one has, would be one, work for the state (who now cant' pay you) or two agriculture (where as because of war crops are burnt in the fields). The health industry will rely on revenue from both urban and rural in order to yield anything meaningful, as for as employment. Urban planning of new businesses are strained (even before the war) by the corrupt practices of the Yemenis government officials.
Even if (and I'm sure they knew) they decided to migrate out and not be like sheep led to slaughter, where the hell are they going to go? It's not like the world is going to welcome them in with open arms ... the death of thousands in the Mediterranean can testify to that.
Just before midnight, a businessman named Rabee’a was on the phone, trying to calm his friend down. Rabee’a owned a drill rig, and his friend had heard stories from elsewhere in Yemen about jets bombing well sites. It was Sept. 10, 2016, a year and a half into the war between the Saudis and the Houthi rebels. But to Rabee’a, it was a war happening over the horizon, out of sight. He was unbothered. That kind of thing wouldn’t happen in a poor place like this one, a district called Arhab that, though deep in rebel territory, was home to nothing and no one of interest to a fighter jet.
Besides, things like airstrikes didn’t happen to people like him. Rabee’a was a charitable man from a privileged family — a little self-satisfied, perhaps, but he had enjoyed good fortune for much of his life, and that wasn’t about to change. Despite a mischievous grin, he was a godly man, a good man, and finding water in poor places for poor people had become his calling; he even forgave debts when his customers couldn’t pay. His big heart, he was certain, had locked in his good luck. “I’m doing a good, legitimate business!” he said. “Those jets have no quarrel with a man on the road to God!”
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RIGHT! - Iran has zero control over the Houthis ..... which is why ONLY Iran can negotiate peace in Yemen. Exactly who do you think has been supplying all those Ballistic Missiles and weapons to the impoverished Houthis? That supply chain has kept this Civil War going since 2015 against almost all the Arab powers + aid from Pakistan, USA, Egypt and a few others. The only Nation I'm aware of that is supplying the Houthis with arms OTHER THAN IRAN is Qatar (who is becoming more allied with Iranian Revolutionary Guards).
Persecution never ends well.
