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I know you are making a false argument. I don't know if you know it. I wonder, since I don't know what purpose would be served. Certainly some people would see your conclusion as obvious. But this simplistic reduction would not be compelling to anyone who was thinking very much. But just the same, I'll play.
I like butter. I find that butter really brings out the flavor of onions and other aromatics. This can be just wonderful in a dish. But I don't conclude that liking butter means that I will enhance my dish by simply adding more and more butter to the aromatic preparation. Yuck!
I like taxes in a society. I regularly vote for candidates who propose policies that will cost me money in taxes. The benefit of those policies is something that I want. But randomly paying taxes serves no good purpose.
Yes, butter and taxes are the same thing.
People like you voting for more taxes have a deep condescending problem. It you want to pay more taxes, I have yet I hear that IRS turns down voluntary taxpayers who pay more than their legal requirement. So write your check and pay more taxes. Put your money where your mouth is. You don’t need the government to force you to pay, so you?
I must ask who are you to tell me how I should spend my own money? Are you my master now? How is that morally justifiable???
You may not have problems paying more taxes but I may have a sick child needing extra medical care.
(We are talking strictly about income, property and estate taxes not VAT or universal sales taxes)
I did not say I liked paying taxes. I said I like taxes. But you are picking some serious nits here now, I do say. Does it hurt to have to work so hard to make such a non-point?
Not really.
Us non-statists are already used to working hard to make no money (after it's stolen at gunpoint).
I did not say I liked paying taxes. I said I like taxes. But you are picking some serious nits here now, I do say. Does it hurt to have to work so hard to make such a non-point?
Isn’t that the same as “I like butter but I don’t like eating butter”?
I did not say I liked paying taxes. I said I like taxes. But you are picking some serious nits here now, I do say. Does it hurt to have to work so hard to make such a non-point?
Who's picking nits now?
The falsehood wasn't that you like paying taxes, the falsehood was you like taxes. You don't, or at least your claims why you like taxes are unrelated to taxes, all the things you like taxes for do not need taxes to provide, tax is one method that can provide those things, but is not the only method, nor necessarily the best method.
I hardly worked to make any point, I've been pretty much just wisecracking on the thread, trying to cover all the points normally made by those supporting the state status quo.
I know you are making a false argument. I don't know if you know it. I wonder, since I don't know what purpose would be served. Certainly some people would see your conclusion as obvious. But this simplistic reduction would not be compelling to anyone who was thinking very much. But just the same, I'll play.
I like butter. I find that butter really brings out the flavor of onions and other aromatics. This can be just wonderful in a dish. But I don't conclude that liking butter means that I will enhance my dish by simply adding more and more butter to the aromatic preparation. Yuck!
I like taxes in a society. I regularly vote for candidates who propose policies that will cost me money in taxes. The benefit of those policies is something that I want. But randomly paying taxes serves no good purpose.
I've found many of the arguments tend to lack nuanced styles of thinking. That's alright with me, 'different strokes for different folks' & all, although the loopy logic also tends to lead to mental masturbation techniques rather than insightful dialogue leading to troubleshooting, solving &/or resolving problems. Counterproductive so to speak.
What’s the Matter with Libertarianism?
Its models of human nature and society are terminally deficient.
As for the teenager-ish name-calling? Sheeesh. Also counterproductive imho. Here's an alternative way of continuing the dialogue, more adult-ish, so to speak:
RJ Eskow: 11 Questions to Ask Libertarians to See if They Are Hypocrites
I've found many of the arguments tend to lack nuanced styles of thinking. That's alright with me, 'different strokes for different folks' & all, although the loopy logic also tends to lead to mental masturbation techniques rather than insightful dialogue leading to troubleshooting, solving &/or resolving problems. Counterproductive so to speak.
What’s the Matter with Libertarianism?
Its models of human nature and society are terminally deficient.
As for the teenager-ish name-calling? Sheeesh. Also counterproductive imho. Here's an alternative way of continuing the dialogue, more adult-ish, so to speak:
RJ Eskow: 11 Questions to Ask Libertarians to See if They Are Hypocrites
You see you criticize one political ideology for loopy logic and mental masturbation. However you do support state sanctioned ownership of citizens from instant of birth, yet will avoid the elephant in the room by crying to the "Social Contract" great and powerful.
When you get down to where the rubber hits the road, there are two simple ideologies. One demands that others assist you in fulfilling your needs, by force if necessary, and similarly you are demanded to fulfil others needs, by force if necessary. The other demands you don't use force unless assaulted.
That's pretty much it. Doesn't matter if you're right or left, one model (the current model of every state) demands you serve others by threat of force. This is apparently your model of choice, since you are disparaging the other model.
I've found many of the arguments tend to lack nuanced styles of thinking. That's alright with me, 'different strokes for different folks' & all, although the loopy logic also tends to lead to mental masturbation techniques rather than insightful dialogue leading to troubleshooting, solving &/or resolving problems. Counterproductive so to speak.
What’s the Matter with Libertarianism?
Its models of human nature and society are terminally deficient.
As for the teenager-ish name-calling? Sheeesh. Also counterproductive imho. Here's an alternative way of continuing the dialogue, more adult-ish, so to speak:
RJ Eskow: 11 Questions to Ask Libertarians to See if They Are Hypocrites
15 Styles of Distorted Thinking
... Polarized Thinking: The hallmark of this distortion is an insistence on dichotomous choices. Things are black or white, good or bad. You tend to perceive everything at the extremes, with very little room for a middle ground. The greatest danger in polarized thinking is its impact on how you judge yourself. For example-You have to be perfect or you're a failure.
... Fallacy of Change: You expect that other people will change to suit you if you just pressure or cajole them enough. You need to change people because your hopes for happiness seem to depend entirely on them. The truth is the only person you can really control or have much hope of changing is yourself. The underlying assumption of this thinking style is that your happiness depends on the actions of others. Your happiness actually depends on the thousands of large and small choices you make in your life.
... Being Right: You feel continually on trial to prove that your opinions and actions are correct. Being wrong is unthinkable and you will go to any length to demonstrate your rightness. Having to be 'right' often makes you hard of hearing. You aren't interested in the possible veracity of a differing opinion, only in defending your own. Being right becomes more important than an honest and caring relationship.
... Mind Reading: Without their saying so, you know what people are feeling and why they act the way they do. In particular, you are able to divine how people are feeling toward you. Mind reading depends on a process called projection. You imagine that people feel the same way you do and react to things the same way you do. Therefore, you don't watch or listen carefully enough to notice that they are actually different. Mind readers jump to conclusions that are true for them, without checking whether they are true for the other person.
15 Styles of Distorted Thinking
Avoid cognitive distortions that may skew the perception of your self, your relationships and your world
You see you criticize one political ideology for loopy logic and mental masturbation. However you do support state sanctioned ownership of citizens from instant of birth, yet will avoid the elephant in the room by crying to the "Social Contract" great and powerful.
When you get down to where the rubber hits the road, there are two simple ideologies. One demands that others assist you in fulfilling your needs, by force if necessary, and similarly you are demanded to fulfil others needs, by force if necessary. The other demands you don't use force unless assaulted.
That's pretty much it. Doesn't matter if you're right or left, one model (the current model of every state) demands you serve others by threat of force. This is apparently your model of choice, since you are disparaging the other model.
There simply isn't a one size fits all, will work no matter what belief. There simply isn't. I've asked many times over how a pure Libertarian society will work and no one, absolutely no one can come anywhere close to providing an answer outside of living like Ted Kaczynski did or going back to something close to the 19th Century. You may like that (you in the big picture) but you don't or you wouldn't be here typing on the internet.
Capitalists love Socialism when it benefits them. Socialists are rarely if ever actually arguing for pure Socialism and Libertarians while absolutely correct on things like war and allowing people many freedoms we try and squash today, can not make their system work in a large society that is not going away.
I don't know why people refuse to accept that no one actually wants what they claim.
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