Views of Libertarians (cost, private school, Massachusetts, money)

[lifeexplorer]

Originally Posted by pknopp

That's how taxes work.

Did anybody put a gun on your head to force you to pay for your internet?

Do you not have the choice NOT paying for internet?

[lifeexplorer]

Originally Posted by pknopp

Largely by the church.

The world is much bigger than the west.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by pknopp

I understand how tolls work. I want it explained how they would work to fund all transportation needs. If it's so simple it should be that hard to explain.

Again, run with no explanation of your beliefs.

I didn't finish out the whole story of the discussion between me and my brother because I didn't think it had an significant value to the conversation, but perhaps I'm wrong. He was telling his 18 year old sister (after learning of philosophy in college) he is agnostic, forced to believe in God as a child, manipulated and scared child, he had accepted Christ. Trust me, that is a lot for an 18 year old to take in all at one time. I accepted Christ of my own free will. Turns out he didn't, as he explained it to me.

It was hours long conversation. I was on a playing field that half the time, more than half, I could not understand where he was coming from. There was no win or loose in that debate, but only of us both coming away with a new understanding. With that said ...

Originally Posted by pknopp

I suggest we do away with an income tax and enact an income toll.

Not that anyone has explained how this other system would work despite me asking many times. It's because it wouldn't.

We do not have to reinvent the wheel.

Before the Income Tax

As it stands today, our income tax is collected and deposited into the Fed Bank, (even those that are low income earners, but they do not get to collect its interest, when they file their returns) the Fed Bank increases the deposit value through interest earned. With a reduction of government inefficiencies it could fund itself from the interest it has collected and through interest never have to collect another penny from our labor again. Same principle can be applied to tolls collected for roads, money draws interests fund future roads from the surplus. Government can also borrow against the interest. The professor you thought was funny and read like Winnie the Pooh, explained it, in pretty much the same way.

By choice or by force, it is important to be able to distinguish between the two.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by Winterfall8324

2. If you want to use something that is vacant like a road and you have to pay a fee, that is force.

3. Blah blah blah

I paved it and maintain it. It's mine.

Praying to Marx to send you a road from on high isn't going to work. Someone has to use their free will to decide to build it, use their labor to build it, and then maintain it. It's not vacant or abandoned.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by pknopp

As a society "you are driving on my road, pay me or I beat you" isn't going to fly.

Reminds me of Cool Hand Luke. "What's your dirt doing in the bosses ditch"?

That's not how defensive force works.

I know violence is sexy to you statists but you can only use defensive force if you are physically threatened and in fear of being harmed/killed.

If I'm standing on my road and you gun your engine...yeah...my life is threatened and I'll take action. If you blow past my gate with me sitting in my little booth I'm going to file a claim with my insurance company and possibly take you to a dispute resolution council if we have entered into such an agreement prior to your action. I'm not going to pull out a rocket launcher and fire at your vehicle from 500 yards behind you.

[ChiGeekGuest]

Originally Posted by pknopp

Again, this is not something I am discussing. As an example. I support the idea of ending the Department of Education and allowing local control.

Libertarians et al discussing the topic of 'roads' ad nauseam? How unusual.

Maybe it's time to move on? A few suggestions as related to the questions posed by the OP:

Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest

What Do Libertarians Really Want?

The same things they've always wanted:

From Mr. Sanders' site: 1980 Libertarian Party platform:

• "We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.”
• “We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”
• “We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”
• “We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”
• “We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social e. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.”
• “We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”
• “We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”
• “We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”
• “We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”
• “We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”
• “We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”
• We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”
• “We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”
• “We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”
• “We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”
• “We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.”
• “We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”
• “We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”
• “We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”
• “We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers

* bold = already discussed ad nauseam

* underlined = potential for new topic to be discussed ad nauseam

* blue = topic currently being discussed in the 'Great Debates' sub forum

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by lifeexplorer

How were people educated before public schools?

Why don't you tell me if you are such an expert?

[Winterfall8324]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

I paved it and maintain it. It's mine.

Praying to Marx to send you a road from on high isn't going to work. Someone has to use their free will to decide to build it, use their labor to build it, and then maintain it. It's not vacant or abandoned.

How big is your property?

If you want to build a road, it needs places to go, that location is collective as even in ancapistan roads would have to go through multiple properties.

Leaving flat pavement that you occasionally maintain does not give you control over that land as people will use that road. And to charge people a fee for what is already there would require force.

[No_Recess]

Originally Posted by Winterfall8324

How big is your property?

Right now? Nothing. There isn't a person in here who owns property or anything else for that matter. The State owns everything including your body.

Originally Posted by Winterfall8324

If you want to build a road, it needs places to go, that location is collective as even in ancapistan roads would have to go through multiple properties.

It's not collective. If I pave a road and maintain it in AnCapistan that means no other person owned the land I used or if they did I was given permission by them to do so.

Originally Posted by Winterfall8324

Leaving flat pavement that you occasionally maintain does not give you control over that land as people will use that road. And to charge people a fee for what is already there would require force.

Here we go again.

I go out in the woods, build a house, maintain it, work it/live in it. One day I go to visit my friend 3 miles away and stay at his house for 4 days. I come home and King Winterfall has taken over my house.

Nobody is going down your slippery slope.

The road didn't exist prior to me showing up and mixing my labor with natural resources to make it. If I'm not there then I will house an employee on site to collect fees. He is the custodial owner in my absence. If nobody is there and you use the road (or take over my house) I have two options:

1. If you are someone I have a personal contract with I can go to the resolution dispute council and ask for intervention.

2. And/or go to my insurance company in accordance with my policy to make a claim that some nut has taken over my house or road.

3. And this is a bonus: I spread the word that you're a deadbeat.

It's no skin off my nose. Go ahead and take my house or road. Give it up or not. I win either way. You lose either way.

[Winterfall8324]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

Right now? Nothing. There isn't a person in here who owns property or anything else for that matter. The State owns everything including your body.



It's not collective. If I pave a road and maintain it in AnCapistan that means no other person owned the land I used or if they did I was given permission by them to do so.



Here we go again.

I go out in the woods, build a house, maintain it, work it/live in it. One day I go to visit my friend 3 miles away and stay at his house for 4 days. I come home and King Winterfall has taken over my house.

Nobody is going down your slippery slope.

The road didn't exist prior to me showing up and mixing my labor with natural resources to make it. If I'm not there then I will house an employee on site to collect fees. He is the custodial owner in my absence. If nobody is there and you use the road (or take over my house) I have two options:

1. If you are someone I have a personal contract with I can go to the resolution dispute council and ask for intervention.

2. And/or go to my insurance company in accordance with my policy to make a claim that some nut has taken over my house or road.

3. And this is a bonus: I spread the word that you're a deadbeat.

It's no skin off my nose. Go ahead and take my house or road. Give it up or not. I win either way. You lose either way.

then you wouldn’t have roads, property can’t extend cross country (or to any necessary extent) without incredible violence and force, or the roads would have to be shared by the property owners in which case fees would be dependent on where on the road you’re on and value would be dependent on what the other owners do with their part of the road.

The rest of what you said is wrong so there’s no point going over it again.