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Old Yesterday, 10:45 PM
 
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MLK, Jr. certainly had his flaws, but I think he was certainly a better leader than the Al Sharptons of today.
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumaois View Post
MLK, Jr. certainly had his flaws, but I think he was certainly a better leader than the Al Sharptons of today.
What flaws?

Serious question.
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Old Today, 10:50 AM
 
10,884 posts, read 2,959,119 times
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Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
What are you talking about. What in God’s name is a Bernie Bro?

Edit: so did ‘progressive’ Theodore Roosevelt help health standards. The point is neither the progressive nor the liberals were interested in MLK’s cause, they passed minimal reforms to keep social stability.
If you consider integration of the military, full equality of pay and jobs during WWII and such things "minimum", then - hey - you are correct.

TR was progressive. The world does not spin on a dime nor does lofty rhetoric or Bernie words come true in an instant. A good person moves the ball down the field.

Lincoln freed the slaves but many of them ended up in a position almost as bad for 100 years. Is that progressive?

Using your standards, only green people from outer space can save us.
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Old Today, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
8,017 posts, read 2,136,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
If you consider integration of the military, full equality of pay and jobs during WWII and such things "minimum", then - hey - you are correct.

TR was progressive. The world does not spin on a dime nor does lofty rhetoric or Bernie words come true in an instant. A good person moves the ball down the field.

Lincoln freed the slaves but many of them ended up in a position almost as bad for 100 years. Is that progressive?

Using your standards, only green people from outer space can save us.
Theodore was a progressive, but that shows more about progressives than anything else. He supported the same financial and economic regime that had been operating since the civil war.

And Lincoln didn't free the slaves, as that was never his intention. After the civil war, blacks went right back to slavery in the south until world war 2 when the southern economy evolved.

From the 1870s to the 1940s, plantation farms operated under the same system as before, only with a rent system rather than an ownership system.

Speaking of which, on industrial policies, unlike the progressives who support the same system that has been in place for hundreds of years, Lincoln saw worker control of the mills and the industrial output as the rational answer to the problems being faced in the north.

None of these policy matters interested northern liberals or progressives, and they were threatened by MLKs fight against imperialism and poverty, despite supporting his racial movement. That is why after the civil rights bill was passed, his popularity plummeted: https://www.newsweek.com/martin-luth...ack-day-780387
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Old Today, 12:44 PM
 
1,937 posts, read 736,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post

And Lincoln didn't free the slaves, as that was never his intention. After the civil war, blacks went right back to slavery in the south until world war 2 when the southern economy evolved.

]
Actually, Lincoln, the US Congress and the people of the United States freed the slaves in 1865 with passage of the 13th amendment. That lasted about 10 years. Then Rutherford Hayes made a deal to end reconstruction in return for electoral votes in the disputed 1876 election. The end of reconstruction allowed the establishment of Jim Crow laws that effectively re-enslaved southern blacks.
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Old Today, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
Actually, Lincoln, the US Congress and the people of the United States freed the slaves in 1865 with passage of the 13th amendment. That lasted about 10 years. Then Rutherford Hayes made a deal to end reconstruction in return for electoral votes in the disputed 1876 election. The end of reconstruction allowed the establishment of Jim Crow laws that effectively re-enslaved southern blacks.
That's why I said the 1870s-1940s.

And Jim Crow laws were different from the plantation workers, who had the same economic position as slaves. And Lincoln did not care if the slaves were freed, had he stayed alive nothing would have changed.
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Old Today, 12:58 PM
 
10,884 posts, read 2,959,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Theodore was a progressive, but that shows more about progressives than anything else. He supported the same financial and economic regime that had been operating since the civil war.

And Lincoln didn't free the slaves, as that was never his intention. After the civil war, blacks went right back to slavery in the south until world war 2 when the southern economy evolved.
As Leo Mentioned, the slaves were freed. Look up the 13,14,15 Amendment (even if slightly after he was murdered by a Traitor)......

The short and sweet of it is the Confederates (called conservatives then and today) broke their deal and their promises. Blacks attained office, owned land and gained the vote.....until the day the Federal Troops left and the Confderates started with their lynchings, Jim Crow and everything else. It took 100 years for it to got back to 1870.

Nothing to do with Southern Economy Evolving. We needed labor in WWII and those blacks and women hired during wartime were FIRED after the boys came home. How many tales of the murder of Blacks returning from WWII do you want me to point you to? You see, when a Confederate saw a black man come home a Hero....or well decked out in uniform, they were considered "uppity" and a thread to the Established Order.

Please, I know you mean well. But you need to read more. Or, if you prefer watching, Mudbound on Nexflix will give you just a short taste.

The "Southern Economy" you are talking about only STARTED to change a decade or so after JFK/LBJ put in Federal LAWS which included watching over elections down there. Those Confederates are slippery and following the law is not their way.

Please. Read. Listen. Learn.

Ted R and FDR both greatly improved the "deal" for the common man....you know, the "forgotten man" that Trump talked about but did nothing for? My Italian family (and millions of others) would have lost everything if not for FDR refi of houses and mortgages.

Place on your wall "The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good" and don't read web sites. Read books - ideally mostly from before the current period.

Last edited by craigiri; Today at 02:11 PM..
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Old Today, 02:20 PM
 
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under FDR one of the alphabet of new deal reforms the NRA was jokingly called the negro run-a-round by a certain segment of society...


the DAY after MLK cam out against the war April 4th 1967 ..186 newspapers wrote condemning articles and many heretofore brother civil rights workers also condemned him...King lived one year to the day before he was killed


my stomach turns even at the thought of mike pence praising MLK
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Old Today, 02:25 PM
 
10,884 posts, read 2,959,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
That's why I said the 1870s-1940s.

And Jim Crow laws were different from the plantation workers, who had the same economic position as slaves. And Lincoln did not care if the slaves were freed, had he stayed alive nothing would have changed.
Well, now you are getting into nuances.

Jim Crow laws AND customs and lynchings and terrorism and "good old boy" networks kept southern blacks from rising up in the ranks of trades employment. They had to go North to do so.

Let me start with one. Have you read Richard Wright "Black Boy"? Set in 1950's and he is smart and develops skills and goes to work in the South where he outshines his white co-workers. But there is no way in hell he's ever get a raise or his position changed. Never happen.

Sherman once told Lincoln (or another government official) that the ONLY way to stop the disease of the Confederacy would be to kill every single Confederate. He realized that you can win a war but you can't kill an idea (wrong or right), especially among certain populations.

Of course, Sherman neither desired to do that nor did he do it. He was making a point which turned out to be 100% true. The thought process that led the Confederates to keep at it even until today has cost our Nation dearly and will continue to do so.

But so what? That has nothing to do with MLK or Bernie or anyone else. In POTUS and other politics there are "big tents" and Lincolns was certainly better than the roll-backs that Andrew Johnson and the Southern Bloc put into place soon after.
"Andrew Johnsons strong opposition to federally guaranteed rights for African Americans is widely criticized. He is regarded by many historians as one of the worst presidents in American history.

MLK was against the War. I attended two of the largest demonstrations in history in DC against the War. That should give you some idea of what "liberals" and MLK had in common.

Also, you must certainly know that the money and bodies that worked tirelessly in the south along with and after MLK to try to push "the dream" were largely Northern Liberals. Some were killed. Many were threatened......

The premise of your thread is incorrect. Just because you can find one or one million reasonable Trumpies doesn't mean the Trump Way is reasonable. Be real here.

Please read:
https://rac.org/jews-and-civil-rights-movement

"From 1910 to 1940, more than 2,000 primary and secondary schools and twenty black colleges (including Howard, Dillard and Fisk universities) were established in whole or in part by contributions from Jewish philanthropist Julius Rosenwald. At the height of the so-called "Rosenwald schools," nearly forty percent of southern blacks were educated at one of these institutions.


During the Civil Rights Movement, Jewish activists represented a disproportionate number of whites involved in the struggle. Jews made up half of the young people who participated in the Mississippi Freedom Summer in 1964. Leaders of the Reform Movement were arrested with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in St. Augustine, Florida, in 1964 after a challenge to racial segregation in public accommodations. Most famously, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel marched arm-in-arm with Dr. King in his 1965 March on Selma.


The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were drafted in the conference room of Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, under the aegis of the Leadership Conference, which for decades was located in the RAC's building. The Jewish community has continued its support of civil rights laws addressing persistent discrimination in voting, housing and employment against not only women and people of color but also in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community and the disabled community."

It should go without saying that Jewish folks were largely white northerners and liberals.
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Old Today, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
8,017 posts, read 2,136,793 times
Reputation: 2302
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Well, now you are getting into nuances.

Jim Crow laws AND customs and lynchings and terrorism and "good old boy" networks kept southern blacks from rising up in the ranks of trades employment. They had to go North to do so.

Let me start with one. Have you read Richard Wright "Black Boy"? Set in 1950's and he is smart and develops skills and goes to work in the South where he outshines his white co-workers. But there is no way in hell he's ever get a raise or his position changed. Never happen.

Sherman once told Lincoln (or another government official) that the ONLY way to stop the disease of the Confederacy would be to kill every single Confederate. He realized that you can win a war but you can't kill an idea (wrong or right), especially among certain populations.

Of course, Sherman neither desired to do that nor did he do it. He was making a point which turned out to be 100% true. The thought process that led the Confederates to keep at it even until today has cost our Nation dearly and will continue to do so.

But so what? That has nothing to do with MLK or Bernie or anyone else. In POTUS and other politics there are "big tents" and Lincolns was certainly better than the roll-backs that Andrew Johnson and the Southern Bloc put into place soon after.
"Andrew Johnsons strong opposition to federally guaranteed rights for African Americans is widely criticized. He is regarded by many historians as one of the worst presidents in American history.

MLK was against the War. I attended two of the largest demonstrations in history in DC against the War. That should give you some idea of what "liberals" and MLK had in common.

Also, you must certainly know that the money and bodies that worked tirelessly in the south along with and after MLK to try to push "the dream" were largely Northern Liberals. Some were killed. Many were threatened......

The premise of your thread is incorrect. Just because you can find one or one million reasonable Trumpies doesn't mean the Trump Way is reasonable. Be real here.

Please read:
https://rac.org/jews-and-civil-rights-movement

"From 1910 to 1940, more than 2,000 primary and secondary schools and twenty black colleges (including Howard, Dillard and Fisk universities) were established in whole or in part by contributions from Jewish philanthropist Julius Rosenwald. At the height of the so-called "Rosenwald schools," nearly forty percent of southern blacks were educated at one of these institutions.


During the Civil Rights Movement, Jewish activists represented a disproportionate number of whites involved in the struggle. Jews made up half of the young people who participated in the Mississippi Freedom Summer in 1964. Leaders of the Reform Movement were arrested with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in St. Augustine, Florida, in 1964 after a challenge to racial segregation in public accommodations. Most famously, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel marched arm-in-arm with Dr. King in his 1965 March on Selma.


The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were drafted in the conference room of Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, under the aegis of the Leadership Conference, which for decades was located in the RAC's building. The Jewish community has continued its support of civil rights laws addressing persistent discrimination in voting, housing and employment against not only women and people of color but also in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community and the disabled community."

It should go without saying that Jewish folks were largely white northerners and liberals.

The ways blacks were treated in the south are separate from what economic system they had. Before ww2 they maintained the same plantation based economy that they had for decades.

Yes after industrialization blacks were still mistreated and abused, but that is separate from the discussion of slavery.

You could argue before the civil war era slaves were better treated than blacks were in the 50s, but that doesn’t matter.

What matters is the slave economy, which needed to exist after the civil war for the south to maintain its economy.

Liberal northerns like you talk about did not have the same economic system as the south, and kept them south for political (not economic) reasons.

Come the civil rights era of the 50s/60s liberals and progressives supported King’s racial movement in the south unlike the conservatives.

BUT King’s legacy continued pass 1964 when his activism turned to economic and military protests, where liberal supporters turned on him: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...780387%3famp=1

In Lincoln’s case, he was not motivated by freeing the slaves, but keep the Union together. That is why after the 13 th amendment was passed, the plantation system of slave labor continued despite official titles (rented labor rather than owned labor).
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