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And a whole acceptable way of life that people do not even want to acknowledge was acceptable existed for all people living in that day.
You know I think the first mistake people make in all of this is the thinking that all black people by merely the color of their skin are some how bonded to one another. Which is in all reality the farthest thing from the truth. It was the black man that kidnapped his own and sold his own into slavery (so as to establish a market) to begin with ... but lets not even talk about that. Or how it came to be that the Brits were the first to be kidnapped and sold into slavery ... that, true as it may be, does not help.
People are not naturally bonded to one another through their ethnicity. Human Beings are much more complicated than that.
From the start of the civil war (war between to governmental ideas) as given in testament from all the generals, notes, cables and letters, the black man was there fighting against the invasion of the union army. Clear factual documentation, but we don't want to talk about that because it isn't 'official' documentation, not to mention it turns the few (all Americans now) into the many, on both sides of the conflict. The issue is so complex, we must dilute those issues, because people only understand, black and white. The rest of the coloring in between, is just to much to comprehend.
The one thing that all those document you cite have in common are the words ... fighting for their independence, just as they fought for their independence from Great Britain ... but that makes it too easy ... so now we add more color, so we can keep people guessing. Because if the citizens ever figure it out ... the government, would be hard pressed to stay in power and keep the peace. (never, ever embrace the true meaning if symbolism, as that may stir passions)
No one is wrong, there is but the perspective, and that ... is the long and short of it all.
To see a person and base a decision about that person, based on what one sees, rather than what one knows of that person, is prejudicial and no matter which way one slices that, it is wrong to do. One can not imagine what life was like 158 years ago and trying to culturally retro fit a modern day idea into it, imo is a fools errand.
Divided people are easier to rule than united ones; the controlling of the historical recorded narrative helps with that. And that ... is just common sense.
Enough with the red herrings. None of what you are saying has refuted what the Confederate cause is about. You are looking really desperate right now. There is a right and a wrong answer as it applies to this thread. You are saying things that have nothing to do with this thread, to distract from the argument. This is known as a red herring.
I'm asking for you to prove to me that the desire to keep slavery had nothing to do with the Confederate cause. Until you can do that, you are the one who is wrong. Until you can show me that my assessment of how most Black Americans don't identify with the Confederate flag is wrong(and no, the "token Blacks" you bring up won't do), you are the one who is wrong here.
Enough with the red herrings. None of what you are saying has refuted what the Confederate cause is about. You are looking really desperate right now. There is a right and a wrong answer as it applies to this thread. You are saying things that have nothing to do with this thread, to distract from the argument. This is known as a red herring.
I'm asking for you to prove to me that the desire to keep slavery had nothing to do with the Confederate cause. Until you can do that, you are the one who is wrong. Until you can show me that my assessment of how most Black Americans don't identify with the Confederate flag is wrong(and no, the "token Blacks" you bring up won't do), you are the one who is wrong here.
One day people in this country are going to wake up and realize a few things, but by then it will be too late, if it isn't already ...
What I have said, makes the historical accounting complete and it goes along with the documents to back it. If those documents were non existent, then so would be the accounting.
You remind me of how it came to be the 'southern cross', as you are adamant the story of us, only goes, one way.
I obviously don't have any insider knowledge regarding how common it is for Black Americans to identify as Southerners , but I also agree that it seems to be a lot less common for Black Americans to identify as Southerners as opposed to their white counterparts . In fact I personally have never heard a Black American refer to themselves as a Southerner , but that's neither here nor there ...
Well, that's what I'm here for. That is what some other individuals are here for. I will let you know what is going on in this. I'm here to tell you what I've seen in my life time. From my experiences as a Black American, I rarely see Black southerners identify as southerners. I certainly don't see it much in Georgia. I'm in a similar boat as you. I've heard maybe one or two Black southerners refer to themselves as southerners, and they didn't refer to themselves as southerners first. All of this is ironic considering that the majority of Black Americans live in the South.
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At any rate I do believe that the basic question behind this thread has already been answered by many different people in many different ways , but ( at the risk of coming off like Captain Obvious ) I'll try to condense it for the benefit of all below :
Black Americans tend to not think highly of the Confederate flag due to the fact that the CSA was a pro slavery/anti black state , whereas White Americans ( especially White Southerners ) tend to have a more ambivalent view of the Confederate flag due to reasons of heritage ( f.ex having ancestors who served in the Confederate Army ) , anti federal government sentiment , " bad ass white boy " subcultural affiliation , and as well as plain old anti black racism . This is of course a very short and condensed answer of which the finer points can be argued ad nauseam , but methinks I've done a good job with it .
Many people have given some good insight and good answers. What is concerning are those who say tha everything I'm talking about is "bunk". I actually started this thread because I felt like it was good to have this debate. In my experiences, I rarely see Black Americans in the South relate to their southern identity the way Whites do. I never hear a Black person say "it's my southern heritage" or "southern pride". I had to think about this because the Confederate flag is a polarizing symbol. If the Confederate flag is suppose to represent southern heritage, I'm not seeing it representing southern heritage. We can bring up all of the evidence showing what the Confederate cause is about. And this will lead to the next part of my argument.
If it's proven that the CSA was basically a pro-slavery/anti-Black state, should that really represent southern heritage? What do said persons who fly Confederate flags really mean when they say "southern heritage"? Who are they talking about? Those who are pro-Confederate should really consider why such a divisive and polarizing symbol, given that there are plenty of southern cultural hallmarks to be proud of, should be upheld as THE symbol of southern heritage, or even if it's really about southern heritage in the first place.
I thought about the "tough white boy" subculture. I figure there are other ways to display that culture without using the Confederate flag as part of it.
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Anyways this is also a bit of an off topic add on and I apologize for that OP , but FWIW I'll be making some threads concerning racial issues some time in the ( hopefully ) not so distant future so we might bump into each other again and I look forward to some fruitful exchanges .
The confederate flag as the symbol of southern hip hop started in the 2000s. This was NOT controversial back then. No one said a word about it.
Confederate flag hysteria is recent.
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And here is the thing. I grew up watching Sesame Street during the early-mid 1990s. I don't ever remember a Confederate flag being on there, not even one.
It was. I forget the performers name, but it was some country music star.
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Many people just accepted it because "it is what it is".
Confederate flags were always common. No one thought they were offensive before. I've seen them my whole life and thought nothing of it. Recently people decided to start acting offended - I think it was after the Charleston Shooting. I suspect white liberals or jews were behind re-branding it as a hate symbol in the media.
Well, that's what I'm here for. That is what some other individuals are here for. I will let you know what is going on in this. I'm here to tell you what I've seen in my life time. From my experiences as a Black American, I rarely see Black southerners identify as southerners.
"To the authors, the most surprising finding is that most blacks in the South self-identify as Southerners, with recent polls putting the figure in the mid 70s. While one might attribute that figure to civil rights legislation, blacks most often appealed to factors such as the sense of community, politeness, the slower pace of life, and reverence for the land. I would also add the importance of Christianity in the lives of blacks, and how revivalistic, evangelical, and often Pentecostal Christianity fits well into the culture of the South. Both races share many of the same foods, and in rural areas large family gatherings are common in both groups. Blacks recognize that they are part of a common culture even though there may be some aspects of it with which they disagree."
The confederate flag as the symbol of southern hip hop started in the 2000s. This was NOT controversial back then. No one said a word about it.
Confederate flag hysteria is recent.
It was. I forget the performers name, but it was some country music star.
Confederate flags were always common. No one thought they were offensive before. I've seen them my whole life and thought nothing of it. Recently people decided to start acting offended - I think it was after the Charleston Shooting. I suspect white liberals or jews were behind re-branding it as a hate symbol in the media.
The confederate flag as the symbol of southern hip hop started in the 2000s. This was NOT controversial back then. No one said a word about it.
Confederate flag hysteria is recent.
It was. I forget the performers name, but it was some country music star.
Confederate flags were always common. No one thought they were offensive before. I've seen them my whole life and thought nothing of it. Recently people decided to start acting offended - I think it was after the Charleston Shooting. I suspect white liberals or jews were behind re-branding it as a hate symbol in the media.
The confederate flag as the symbol of southern hip hop started in the 2000s. This was NOT controversial back then. No one said a word about it.
Confederate flag hysteria is recent.
It was. I forget the performers name, but it was some country music star.
Confederate flags were always common. No one thought they were offensive before. I've seen them my whole life and thought nothing of it. Recently people decided to start acting offended - I think it was after the Charleston Shooting. I suspect white liberals or jews were behind re-branding it as a hate symbol in the media.
I live in Georgia. The so-called hysteria isn't that recent. It was around sometime in the early 2000s, ironically when said hip hop artists were doing that. The "hysteria" was around something I remembered from my teenage years (I turn 33 next month). This didn't start with the Charleston shooting. This issue has been around since I was a teenager.
And I don't appreciate you trying to turn this into an anti-semitic thread.
"To the authors, the most surprising finding is that most blacks in the South self-identify as Southerners, with recent polls putting the figure in the mid 70s. While one might attribute that figure to civil rights legislation, blacks most often appealed to factors such as the sense of community, politeness, the slower pace of life, and reverence for the land. I would also add the importance of Christianity in the lives of blacks, and how revivalistic, evangelical, and often Pentecostal Christianity fits well into the culture of the South. Both races share many of the same foods, and in rural areas large family gatherings are common in both groups. Blacks recognize that they are part of a common culture even though there may be some aspects of it with which they disagree."
Well, you notice that the Confederate flag is not among those things shared by Blacks and Whites?
I have a degree in history and a master's degree specifically on the US Civil War.
-Secession was driven by an urge to protect the institution of slavery.
-Read the secession conventions...it is clear slavery is the driving force.
-I can't find a single states' right in South Carolina's Declaration of Secession that doesn't have to do with slavery or black people. Ironically they attack states' rights in the north in that document.
-The biggest and most incendiary political issue of the antebellum period revolved around slavery and more specifically the expansion of slavery westward.
-The South was highly inconsistent on states' rights. When it came time to strengthen slavery the South for decades had pushed a larger national government at the expense of state, municipality, and individual rights. In fact it was Massachusetts was known as being a defender of states' rights as they opposed big government policies such as the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act and other policies.
-The free states were gaining in population (9 out of every 10 immigrants moved to a free state) and therefore dominating the US House of Representatives and Electoral College. This is why Lincoln could easily win the election with about ~40% of the popular vote.
-Lincoln was a legitimate threat to slavery even though he promised not to harm it where it already was. This was because Lincoln stood firm on stopping the expansion of slavery - this meant no new slave states...no westward expansion for slavery and more importantly the free states would win control of the US Senate too. Also Lincoln was attacked by southern newspapers, politicians, and preachers as wanting to "force" interracial marriages on poor people of the South and to enslave the poor whites with black mobs who would rape their women.
-The South had been overrepresented in the Federal Government for years...now they had lost control of that government for what appeared permanently at the same time slavery was growing in its divisiveness.
-It was not a matter if the Free States would start attacking slavery where it already existed, but when.
-Many northerners opposed the expansion of slavery westward not on moral grounds, but rather on economic grounds. "middle class white farmers from the North shouldn't have to compete with rich white southerners in Kansas who will buy up thousands of acres of the best farmland and have hundreds of slaves work it."
We may not agree on everything, but we can agree on this. You have done the research. You are one of the reasons I tend to ask scholars about this. I've known about the Articles of Secession since about 2010. However, I asked a Civil War scholar about it, at Kennesaw State University. He confirmed that slavery was in fact one of the major factors which drove secession. You having a degree in history helps alot. You at least know you craft very well. However, you don't have to be a scholared person to understand this. Just a good understanding of U.S. history will show that slavery was a big driver.
I've posted the Articles of Secession a few times. I notice that the very pro-Confederate types try very hard to ignore it.
I've heard the argument "It's states' rights" whenever I've criticized the use of the Confederate flag. At the time (my mid teens) I didn't know much about the Articles of Secession. I didn't know much about states' rights. I just knew what my father told me regarding the Confederate flag and the Civil War, and whatever I was taught in school. I was taught about slavery in school. However, looking back, it was obvious that it pained the teachers to talk about it, and some of the students would have rose some h-e-double hockey sticks if the Articles of Secession were taught in grave details.
I feel like the slavery issue should have been solved much earlier. The slave states were basically being coddled for years. It wasn't enough that the southern states had slavery. They wanted the free states to protect their slave economy by returning runaways. The South was gung-ho about states rights, but only when it benefited them, not everyone. And when the slave states started seeing that the North's power could cost them their ability to keep their slave-owning way of life. They were afraid. Slavery had been a driving force for decades.
Interesting that you mention Kansas. Bleeding Kansas was basically a pre-cursor to the Civil War. The irony is that there were no attempts to grow cotton in Kansas until 1861, when the South started seceding. And even then, it was only grown in the far southeast of the state, near the Oklahoma border. Most of Kansas is better for wheat and cattle. A wide scale plantation system in Kansas wouldn't have taken hold. At the end of the day, the pro-slavery forces wanted slavery expanded, not for the profit, but to keep it sustained where it was sustained already.
You also mentioned something else. Being an abolitionist didn't necessarily mean being a friend of the Black man. There were those who saw Blacks as extra competition in the work force, and saw slavery as competing with paid workers.
As for why the South feared freeing the slaves, economics was definitely part of it. There was also indeed a fear of Black people. This is a big part of why the KKK and Jim Crow laws came about after Reconstruction. It was about trying to restore some semblance of the racial social order.
Because of what the Confederate cause was about, this is a big part of why I have no respect for the Confederate flag. When I hear "states rights", I think it's a joke. When I hear "southern pride", I want someone to define what that is.
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) I'll try to condense it for the benefit of all below :
