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Old 04-04-2019, 11:02 AM
 
72,867 posts, read 62,340,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Does it not amount to the same thing?

And the French most certainly did lionize collaborators, or at least look the other way. Maurice Papon?

Look at this way. You have made some outstanding points on this thread. The majority if not all of the people who argue against you here are not stating that Slavery or Jim Crow was a good thing. They are trying to disassociate the Civil War and the Battle Flag from both. They love their regional culture and for good reason. Just as the French love their culture and glorious history.

Lincoln/Johnson and later DeGaulle were not interested in some grand "Judgement at Nuremberg" for their respective countries. They wanted to pick up and move on. It was too horrible to ponder.

These are examples where the victors did not write history.
Similar but different. Similar in the sense that there are some shameful chapters in history. On that note, however, I haven't met many Frenchman who were proud of Nazi collaborators (none actually).

I've never heard of Maurice Papon. If there was any lionization of Nazi collaborators in France, I'm not hearing about that taking place today.

I know the French love their history. I have never heard a Frenchman mention Maurice Papon. I read about him. I notice the only political party in France that likes him is the National Front, a right-wing party. Other than that, I don't hear Maurice Papon mentioned or respected by modern-day French people. I do hear of Robert E. Lee mentioned and respected, even today.

I see similarities. I see differences. Robert E. Lee is well-respected among many southerners. Alot of French people don't even mention Papon. I wouldn't have learned about him had you not mentioned it.

 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:09 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,898,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Thank you. What I was trying to do was explain why the Lost Cause myth would have taken place anyway. In Germany, they tore down everything that was reminiscent of the Nazi era. In the South, there was not much to tear down. In Germany, you could come up with better speech because there was plenty to tear down. Combating bad speech with better speech was easier. People could see that Hitler no longer represented the progress and freedom they thought he would. The mindset might have still been there, but they realized that if they wanted a prosperous, orderly nation again, they would have to do differently.

In the South, there were no statues. There were certainly flags. However, they weren't hanging until after Reconstruction ended. You couldn't combat the Lost Cause because it had not come around yet. You could certainly combat the KKK. There were plenty of bad things around. However, it was a different level, and a different mindset. In Germany, many people could deny it, until they were shown those films. In the South, there was no denial. Instead of combating denial, you would have to combat rage.

The Lost Cause would have cropped up, simply because it was in the works. I think this Lost Cause would have been different. Fighting a Civil War is different from WWII. It's literally one country, but two factions at war. Germany was at war with countries around it. The South wanted its slave-owning way of life back. The Lost Cause myth would have been about blaming Blacks for the condition that the South was in. It wouldn't just be about blaming northerners.
Just wanted to mention that nonsensical Confederate apologia Liberty and Slavery was written in 1856. They started in with the 'Lost Cause' bs before the War.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,562 posts, read 10,311,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
That is some messed up nonsense right there ^

Oh. No wonder, this particular 'Yosemite Sam' was an architect of the nonsensical lost cause mythologies. Nonsensical Confederate apologia.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Taylor_Bledsoe

No wonder folks got so messed up from reading this tripe.
Exactly. A parallel is the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa using religious tracts to justify racist policies to subjugate the black community there in the apartheid era for a long time. Later they saw the writing on the wall and moved to condemn apartheid in the late 1980s.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:22 AM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
We shall conclude the argument from Scripture with the following just and impressive testimony of the Princeton Review:

"The mass of the pious and thinking people in this country are neither abolitionists nor the advocates of slavery. They stand where they ever have stood — on the broad Scriptural foundation; maintaining the obligation of all men, in their several places and relations, to act on the law of love, and to promote the spiritual and temporal welfare of others by every means in their power. They stand aloof from the abolitionists for various reasons. In the first place, they disapprove of their principles. The leading characteristic doctrine of this sect is that slaveholding is in all cases a sin, and should, therefore, under all circumstances, be immediately abandoned. As nothing can be plainer than that slaveholders were admitted to the Christian church by the inspired apostles, the advocates of this doctrine are brought into direct collision with the Scriptures. This leads to one of the most dangerous evils connected with the whole system, viz., a disregard of the authority of the word of God, a setting up a different and higher standard of truth and duty, and a proud and confident wresting of Scripture to suit their own purposes. The history of interpretation furnishes no examples of more wilful and violent perversions of the sacred text than are to be found in the writings of the abolitionists. They seem to consider themselves above the Scriptures; and when they put themselves above the law of God, it is not wonderful that they should disregard the laws of men. ... "" (my emphasis) An Essay on Liberty and Slavery - THE ARGUMENT FROM THE SCRIPTURES


"If there is anything in the Bible that makes modern people nervous, it is its treatment of slavery. Slavery is humanely regulated in the legal portions of the Old Testament, and in the epistles of the New Testament slaveholders are exhorted to show kindness to slaves, but nowhere in the Bible is there anything which can be interpreted as a disapproval of the institution as such. People of our generation, Christians included, tend to have a very hard time with this, because it seems to amount to a tacit approval of the institution, and we balk at the idea that God did not consider the institution itself to be immoral." ‘Make Good Use of Your Servitude’- Some Observations on Biblical Interpretation and Slavery


3000 years of it and people only want to talk about the last of it. Interesting enough, it was also the era that women were the property of their husbands again, ordained by God Himself.

KJV Bibles were distributed to the slaves in the south. There were some abolitionists that didn't not agree with doing that. It was then the black people learned to read using the Bible, as that was the only book available to them.

African American Christianity, Pt. I:
To the Civil War
"But in North America, slaves came into contact with the growing number of Protestant evangelical preachers, many of whom actively sought the conversion of African Americans."

What changed at the ending of the civil war, was ownership of property and citizenship. And with all arguments it begins and ends with taxation. When we labor today, a percentage of our wages goes to the government. When the slave labored, it was to benefit their owner.

The Bible teaches the first fruits of our labor belongs to our Master ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
That is some messed up nonsense right there ^

Oh. No wonder, this particular 'Yosemite Sam' was an architect of the nonsensical lost cause mythologies. Nonsensical Confederate apologia.

Quote:
Albert Taylor Bledsoe (November 9, 1809 – December 8, 1877) was an American Episcopal priest, attorney, professor of mathematics, and officer in the Confederate army and was best known as a staunch defender of slavery and, after the South lost the American Civil War, an architect of the Lost Cause.[1] He was the author of Liberty and Slavery (1856), "the most extensive philosophical treatment of slavery ever produced by a Southern academic", which defended slavery laws as ensuring proper societal order.[2] ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Taylor_Bledsoe

No wonder folks got so messed up from reading this tripe.
Because of that you will disconnect yourself from the Biblical text and what was deemed in that era, God's law, the law of the land? Sounds about right.

I had to look this up from this excerpt:

"If our women are to be emancipated from subjection to the law which God has imposed upon them, if they are to quit the retirement of domestic life, where they preside in stillness over the character and destiny of society; if they are to come forth in the liberty of men, to be our agents, our public lecturers, our committee-men, our rulers; if, in studied insult to the authority of God, we are to renounce in the marriage contract all claim to obedience, we shall soon have a country over which the genius of Mary Wolstonecraft would delight to preside, but from which all order and all virtue would speedily be banished." An Essay on Liberty and Slavery


Mary Wollstonecraft, 1759-1797
 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:24 AM
 
72,867 posts, read 62,340,278 times
Reputation: 21814
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Just wanted to mention that nonsensical Confederate apologia Liberty and Slavery was written in 1856. They started in with the 'Lost Cause' bs before the War.
I can't find the document anywhere. However, this is where I was coming from. The Lost Cause myth was flourishing in the years after the Civil War. Had the U.S. Army been as rigorous with their ridding the South of Confederate culture, it wouldn't have been the same results. Soldiers might have been punished, but there would still be people perpetuating the Lost Cause myth. It would just take on a different nature.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:28 AM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Just wanted to mention that nonsensical Confederate apologia Liberty and Slavery was written in 1856. They started in with the 'Lost Cause' bs before the War.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I can't find the document anywhere. However, this is where I was coming from. The Lost Cause myth was flourishing in the years after the Civil War. Had the U.S. Army been as rigorous with their ridding the South of Confederate culture, it wouldn't have been the same results. Soldiers might have been punished, but there would still be people perpetuating the Lost Cause myth. It would just take on a different nature.
Quote:
I can't find the document anywhere.
Below is chapter 3 from the anti-abolitionist book, An Essay on Liberty and Slavery, by Albert Taylor Bledsoe (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott & co., 1856). An Essay on Liberty and Slavery - THE ARGUMENT FROM THE SCRIPTURES
 
Old 04-04-2019, 12:23 PM
 
13,631 posts, read 20,718,376 times
Reputation: 7635
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Similar but different. Similar in the sense that there are some shameful chapters in history. On that note, however, I haven't met many Frenchman who were proud of Nazi collaborators (none actually).

I've never heard of Maurice Papon. If there was any lionization of Nazi collaborators in France, I'm not hearing about that taking place today.

I know the French love their history. I have never heard a Frenchman mention Maurice Papon. I read about him. I notice the only political party in France that likes him is the National Front, a right-wing party. Other than that, I don't hear Maurice Papon mentioned or respected by modern-day French people. I do hear of Robert E. Lee mentioned and respected, even today.

I see similarities. I see differences. Robert E. Lee is well-respected among many southerners. Alot of French people don't even mention Papon. I wouldn't have learned about him had you not mentioned it.
Of course you never heard of Papon. The French are too ashamed to mention him. Especially that he flourished for decades after the war despite his despicable actions.

More to the point:

No analogy is exact and of course the two situations differ greatly. One was an occupation, the other a civil war. One was 20th century France, the other 19th century America.

The point is the reactive dynamic is much the same: Create a myth to salve the wounds of shame. Especially when there is no reckoning in the aftermath. This is human nature.

Both times featured leaders just wanting to end the nightmare and move into the future. To do so quickly requires ignoring a lot of horrible things in order to expedite recovery. But when you sweep things under the carpet, they remain unresolved and fester.

I share your dislike of the CF. You have put a lot of effort into this thread, but seem bewildered at times as to why these folks won't meet you halfway. They do not strike me as mindless bigots, so there must be something else at play. I offer this theory simply as a suggestion.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 02:23 PM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Of course you never heard of Papon. The French are too ashamed to mention him. Especially that he flourished for decades after the war despite his despicable actions.

More to the point:

No analogy is exact and of course the two situations differ greatly. One was an occupation, the other a civil war. One was 20th century France, the other 19th century America.

The point is the reactive dynamic is much the same: Create a myth to salve the wounds of shame. Especially when there is no reckoning in the aftermath. This is human nature.

Both times featured leaders just wanting to end the nightmare and move into the future. To do so quickly requires ignoring a lot of horrible things in order to expedite recovery. But when you sweep things under the carpet, they remain unresolved and fester.

I share your dislike of the CF. You have put a lot of effort into this thread, but seem bewildered at times as to why these folks won't meet you halfway. They do not strike me as mindless bigots, so there must be something else at play. I offer this theory simply as a suggestion.
I have another:
Great Crimes Do Not Require Great Villains
"They are committed by those who do not question."


France's Papon Case Puts an Era on Trial
"One comparison to the extravaganza of the O.J. Simpson trial is accurate: The Papon case is the talk of the town, mainly this one. In this case, however, the talk usually dwells on somewhat larger themes."


Could be he was thrown under the bus. Just a thought ...


What we have here in regards to the Civil War is the full compilation of the records (United States. War Dept.) and if some one believes something is being kept a secret, inquiring minds will always want to get down to the whole truth and leave nothing to the imagination. (where myths reside) Of course if someone has a problem with reading originals, they can always go to the university historical professor, to help them out with that ... that always works.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:33 PM
 
72,867 posts, read 62,340,278 times
Reputation: 21814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Of course you never heard of Papon. The French are too ashamed to mention him. Especially that he flourished for decades after the war despite his despicable actions.

More to the point:

No analogy is exact and of course the two situations differ greatly. One was an occupation, the other a civil war. One was 20th century France, the other 19th century America.

The point is the reactive dynamic is much the same: Create a myth to salve the wounds of shame. Especially when there is no reckoning in the aftermath. This is human nature.

Both times featured leaders just wanting to end the nightmare and move into the future. To do so quickly requires ignoring a lot of horrible things in order to expedite recovery. But when you sweep things under the carpet, they remain unresolved and fester.

I share your dislike of the CF. You have put a lot of effort into this thread, but seem bewildered at times as to why these folks won't meet you halfway. They do not strike me as mindless bigots, so there must be something else at play. I offer this theory simply as a suggestion.
Thus is one major difference. The French that I've run into are too ashamed to utter his name. When it comes to Confederate generals like Lee and Davis, we have a TV show featuring a car called General Lee.

There were certainly some honor given to Nazi collaborators at first. However, how long did it last?

There were some similarities. I think what made the South different is the defiance. Most modern-day French people won't utter his name. In the South, Robert E. Lee is still heavily celebrated by many. Many people aren't ashamed of General Lee. Now, the denial is the same.

This is my theory. Alot of people aren't going to meet me halfway for reasons besides shame. I don't think it has much to do with shame. Rather, it's stubbornness. The South was taken out of slavery kicking and screaming. It was taken out of Jim Crow kicking and screaming. All that is left now is the Confederate flag. Lionizing Confederate generals takes on a new meaning. Some persons are not mindless. Some persons just don't want anyone to challenge them. There is an attitude of "we lost the war, but we don't change for anyone". I think in many ways the Confederate flag has become a last gasp.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 04:46 PM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,898,439 times
Reputation: 3461
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Exactly. A parallel is the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa using religious tracts to justify racist policies to subjugate the black community there in the apartheid era for a long time. Later they saw the writing on the wall and moved to condemn apartheid in the late 1980s.
Sounds analogous.
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