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Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. That's why the Germans have let some of the concentration camps stay open as tourist attractions. If every remnant was destroyed it would be too easy to deny their existence. As it is, we still are seeing holocaust deniers and Leftist anti-Semites.
Go to the Confederate museum in Richmond if you get a chance. Nothing heroic or noble about it. All rather sad that so many and so much was lost because one side wanted to keep their power. I didn't get a chance to see the famous street of Civil War statues and hope they don't pull them down. I'd like to know who those people were. It is also the art of that time.
The Left wants to rewrite history after wiping it out.
This thread has shown me something. This is why I don't discuss the Confederate flag with anyone unless I know they will agree with me. It triggers some very strong feelings. It triggers alot of anger. It can't be discussed without anger or hardheaded mentality. I remember one time in college I brought up the Articles of Secession. That person didn't want to hear it. Said person held on stubbornly to his love for the Confederacy. It shows how controversial this subject is.
Why do you think so much about the Confederate flag and the Confederacy? It seems like a trivial issue at this point.
Confederate stuff is exactly the same Heritage as Nazi stuff....that is, the flags and symbols of a failed effort to enslave other human beings.
Not much more complicated than that. Sure, I feel bad for the poor whites of the South who died and got hurt fighting for their Masters and Politicians. People are often caught at the wrong place and in the wrong time. So be it.
We are only guilty for the sins of our fathers if we fail to heed them and change to the light.
What is sad is that they’re still doing the same thing.
You’d think that after 150 yrs they would have learned but, no.
Jesus Christ. The article the poster submitted ISN’T made up.
Please read.
Jesus Christ. The article the poster submitted IS made up. Because you said so is meaningless and laughable. Again you have no proof. Not that you care about the truth.
Agree it's often about "freedom for me, not for thee" & "don't tread on my right to tread on you".
How often?
You aren't wrong, but I think you may be drawing with too broad a brush. No one sees libertarianism as an end. It is a means to an end. People attach themselves to the ideology that is most-useful to them. Many libertarians aren't actually libertarians, they are authoritarians who are too weak to control the government directly, but they can use libertarianism as a kind of underhanded way to get what they want.
Quote:
"I always had an aversion to your apostles of freedom; each but sought for himself freedom to do what he liked." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Liberty is of small value to the lower third of humanity. They greatly prefer security, which means protection by some class above them. They are always in favor of despots who promise to feed them. The only liberty an inferior man really cherishes is the liberty to quit work, stretch out in the sun, and scratch himself." - H.L. Mencken
"What the common man longs for in this world, before and above all his other longings, is the simplest and most ignominious sort of peace: the peace of a trusty in a well-managed penitentiary. He is willing to sacrifice everything else to it. He puts it above his dignity and he puts it above his pride. Above all, he puts it above his liberty. The fact, perhaps, explains his veneration for policemen, in all the forms they take–his belief that there is a mysterious sanctity in law, however absurd it may be in fact. A policeman is a charlatan who offers, in return for obedience, to protect him (a) from his superiors, (b) from his equals, and (c) from himself. This last service, under democracy, is commonly the most esteemed of them all. In the United States, at least theoretically, it is the only thing that keeps ice-wagon drivers, Y.M.C.A. secretaries, insurance collectors and other such human camels from smoking opium, ruining themselves in the night clubs, and going to Palm Beach with Follies girls... Under the pressure of fanaticism, and with the mob complacently applauding the show, democratic law tends more and more to be grounded upon the maxim that every citizen is, by nature, a traitor, a libertine, and a scoundrel. In order to dissuade him from his evil-doing the police power is extended until it surpasses anything ever heard of in the oriental monarchies of antiquity." - H.L. Mencken
"The preachers and lecturers deal with men of straw, as they are men of straw themselves. Why, a free-spoken man, of sound lungs, cannot draw a long breath without causing your rotten institutions to come toppling down by the vacuum he makes. Your church is a baby-house made of blocks, and so of the state....The church, the state, the school, the magazine, think they are liberal and free! It is the freedom of a prison-yard." - Henry David Thoreau
"The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves; a contest, that—however bloody—can, in the nature of things, never be finally closed, so long as man refuses to be a slave." - Lysander Spooner
"The most urgent necessity is, not that the State should teach, but that it should allow education. All monopolies are detestable, but the worst of all is the monopoly of education." - Frederick Bastiat
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." - CS Lewis
"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." - Henry David Thoreau
"Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison, the only house in a slave State in which a free man can abide with honor... If the alternative is to keep all just men in prison, or give up war and slavery, the State will not hesitate which to choose." - Henry David Thoreau
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting." - Charles Bukowski
"How we live is so different from how we ought to live, that he who studies what ought to be done, rather than what is done, will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation." - Niccolo Machievelli
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides
“There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.” - Vladimir Lenin
"Powerful states can maintain themselves only by crime, little states are virtuous only by weakness." - Mikhail Bakunin
"To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together." - Zbigniew Brzezinski
"All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and well born, the other the mass of the people.... The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by change, they therefore will ever maintain good government." - Alexander Hamilton
"A man who is without capital, and who, by prohibitions upon banking, is practically forbidden to hire any, is in a condition elevated but one degree above that of a chattel slave. He may live; but he can live only as the servant of others; compelled to perform such labor, and to perform it at such prices, as they may see fit to dictate." - Lysander Spooner
"Those who labor in the earth are the chosen people of God, if ever he had a chosen people, whose breasts he has made his peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue. It is the focus in which he keeps alive that sacred fire, which otherwise might escape from the face of the earth. Corruption of morals in the mass of cultivators is a phenomenon of which no age nor nation has furnished an example. It is the mark set on those, who not looking up to heaven, to their own soil and industry, as does the husbandman, for their subsistence, depend for it on the casualties and caprice of customers. Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition. This, the natural progress and consequence of the arts, has sometimes perhaps been retarded by accidental circumstances: but, generally speaking, the proportion which the aggregate of the other classes of citizens bears in any state to that of its husbandmen, is the proportion of its unsound to its healthy parts, and is a good-enough barometer whereby to measure its degree of corruption." - Thomas Jefferson
"Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end." - Henry David Thoreau
"I have no ambition to govern men; it is a painful and thankless office." - Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by Redshadowz; 02-17-2019 at 07:16 PM..
I thought of something. This thread has seen constant deflections. Some people might purposely spew lies and stupidity (such as the Lost Cause) because they want attention. I suspect said persons know that what they're saying is junk. I think some people stubbornly hold on to fallacies out of anger.
I haven't found a pay roster either. And I think we both know why some people keep pushing the "Black Confederates" narrative. There is a desperation to paint the Confederate cause as a noble, morally sound cause.
I have posted to this once and I am posting again because I have an update of new information I've found. First off, you and I both were looking in the wrong place, 'pay rosters' ... (don't just read my snippet and call it day)
" ... there is another source of information about the service of these men. Although the information it provides is not as colorful as that found in the anecdotes recorded by Confederate veterans, it has the advantage of having been collected systematically and verified by witnesses. That source of information consists of their applications for Confederate pensions after the war."
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
Reading that article, this explains why alot of Blacks vote Democrat these days rather than Republican. It's about Civil Rights. This is why more Blacks don't vote libertarian. Libertarianism doesn't take into account that sometimes government control is necessary. Not all men and women are good at heart. If all men were angels, government wouldn't be necessary.
As for "freedom for me, not for thee", the Confederate cause was basically that. Confederate Constitution explicitly protected slavery, named it in their Constitution. I think those who seek to derail this discussion do so because they want someone like me to just "shut up and go along with the program".
Quote:
sometimes government control is necessary
So, it does not bother you (along with the majority of people) that the fruits of your labor the government is the 'first' one to get paid, even before you do? Before 1913 it funded itself just fine without having to do that, just so you know. Look for The Money Masters (1996) (transcript) upload on you tube, it gives a wealth of information. "Since 1864 we've had a debt-based system."
Like you I have thought, people are not nice, they will not always give and there will be those that will fall through the cracks without government intervention. Yet, even with government intervention, people fall through the cracks ...
Libertarian is as close to sovereign (reference to Biblical) as I can get, so I go with them. I, liken to the Confederate States of yesterday, recognize, I may be free, but I am not recognized as independent, therefore, am I really free? I can not even leave this country and take up residency in another country without paying (for the freedom to do so) an exit tax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
The Lost Cause myth has endured, even into the 21st century. Even some people born in the 1980s still hold on to it stubbornly. I know why the older generations held onto it. Why the younger generation holds onto is something to note.
The Confederate flag was a symbol of the Confederacy, and still represents that. It became a symbol of resistance against integration and civil rights. Why the Confederate flag became the flag of choice is what needs to be examined.
Given the controversy behind the Confederate flag, it would make sense NOT to use that symbol to identify with southern heritage. However, it is used as such.
If one wishes to represent southern heritage, one needs to define what southern heritage is. What southern heritage is being represented? Whose southern heritage is being represented?
These questions need fo be asked.
Quote:
Why the younger generation holds onto is something to note.
There is a wealth of information on the Internet in regards to history, since this is their era, this (the Internet) is also their area of expertise. They are no longer subject to just the information given to them in the government classrooms. Research is a point and click away and they know how to use the search terms to access the information they need.
So when they read the paper(s) written by the university historian professor that says, the Civil War was all about slavery and then they read the documentation they accessed as to original records of the Civil War, that say, states rights, then they can do what .... ? Draw their own conclusion. (proof beyond the Articles of Succession; Cornerstone [original documentation provided by a newspaper reporter] Speech)
"There is no original version of Stephens's speech, because he spoke extemporaneously. His words were jotted down and printed in the Savannah newspapers."
"The Southern Heritage Classic presented by FedEx is an annual historically black college football game between the Tigers of Jackson State University and the Tigers of Tennessee State University since 1990.[1] The game is broadcast on FOX Sports Southeast. "
It goes on to say players get drafted into the NFL ... I'm not into sports, but thought that it warranted a made mention in this post, just because of Southern Heritage, being that which some find, they cannot define, but I did do that; so will once again ...
"The traditional culture of the Southern United States has been called a "culture of honor", that is, a culture where people avoid intentionally offending others, and maintain a reputation for not accepting improper conduct by others. A theory as to why the American South had or may have this culture is an assumed regional belief in retribution to enforce one's rights and deter predation against one’s family, home and possessions. The concept was tested by social scientists Richard Nisbett and Dov Cohen in their book Culture of Honor[1] and repopularized by a discussion in Chapter Six of Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. "
Quote:
Given the controversy behind the Confederate flag, it would make sense NOT to use that symbol to identify with southern heritage. However, it is used as such.
"A 58%-majority say they have neither a positive or negative reaction when seeing the Confederate flag. Not surprisingly, there are disparate reactions to the Civil War flag of the South among different demographic groups. Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag."
So how big is that 'caring' meter again? No so much. At the end of the day, there are far more pressing concerns in (the liberties of) our personal lives, so if I may quote (not verbatim) Rett Butler ... 'frankly not giving a damn' about a rebel flag. However, I believe all things (like this threaded discussion) serve a purpose, sometimes even beyond their original intent.
I'm sure you're aware of the definition of 'Lost Cause' so will not bother here.
I had never even heard the term "Lost Cause" until this thread. Oklahoma isn't really "The South", and it wasn't until my sister moved to Georgia that I had ever heard the term "War of Northern Aggression". I have zero attachment to the south. And I was taught exactly what every other American was taught about the Civil War in our public schools. I didn't even pay attention to politics until I was almost 30 years old.
I came to this forum as a socialist, who had worked for years for a union company which voted overwhelmingly for democrats.
The reason I turned away from socialism is ironically what socialists claim they are fighting for, morality.
The left is full of druggies, degenerates, freaks, narcissists, and hedonists, who are obsessed with money and materialism, but who imagine themselves morally superior.
I am a conservative insofar as I am a moralist. I would much rather live in a country of poverty, surrounded by good people. Than to live in a rich country surrounded by degenerates.
Everything that I advocate for is through but one lens, to make people better people. I could care less about making them comfortable, or rich. I have no interest in catering to men's desires, but in saving their souls.
I would much rather we all lived like the Amish than like Hollywood. But which direction are we headed in?
I do not believe we can be saved. And I hate capitalism just as much as I hate socialism. Both have corrupted the entire world, and for what?
The world gets richer every day, and yet the people get worse every day. I hate everything.
"What's the use of a fine house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on?" - Henry David Thoreau
Several events over the last view years have put the Confederate flag in the national spotlight. It is a controversial symbol and for good reason. I grew up in Georgia and kept hearing the same thing "it represents southern heritage" or "it's about my southern pride". I ask my mother and her response was "I'm southern but it's not my pride". I'll save how I feel about the Confederate flag for later in the thread.
Living in the South, there is one segment of the population that never says that it represents "southern pride" or "southern heritage". That is the Black population. 55 percent of American's Black population lives in the South. Most Blacks regardless of what state they're born in have ancestors from the southern USA (see The Great Migration). By default, the majority of America's Black population are southerners or have southern heritage. However, a majority of Blacks do not claim the Confederate flag as part of their heritage. I can testify to this living in Georgia.
Outside of the "Blacks are brainwashed by the leftists" gaslighting line, I notice very few people can or will answer this question: Why aren't Blacks embracing the Confederate flag as part of their "southern heritage"? This is an important question to ask because. There is a major contrast between how many Whites view the Confederate flag vs how Blacks view the Confederate flag. And there are legitimate reasons for this. However, I'm noticing that said question is not being asked.
By the way, if the only thing anyone has to offer is "Blacks are brainwashed by the left" or some photo of a token Black person brandishing a Confederate flag, this is not the thread for you. I've seen that tactic so many times it's like a broken record. Gaslighting at its finest.
The confederate flag is a rag with colored stars and stripes on it. The confederate flag is meaningless to most people living in the United States today. Those who fly the flag, more often than not, do not do so out of some deep respect they hold for the past or their "southern heritage". They fly it because those who oppose and despise it give that flag "power". The power to offend, anger, etc. So flying the flag gives certain people a sense of power over those who despise the flying rag.
Just like many things in this world, that flag means nothing without people, such as yourself, giving it power. The same can be said for many things. Certain words, phrases, symbols, etc. which are nothing more than a series of letters or lines drawn together. Yet when people hear the words, or see the symbols, and react in a negative manner and protest their existence, they give those words/symbols/etc. power. All we have to do is say no, that word,flag,symbol,etc. does not affect me or my life in any way, shape, or form. Take the power away from these symbols/words of hate, and those who wield them will lose all the power you have given them. I know this might sound crazy, but I believe it's absolutely true. That flag is nothing put cloth and dye, unless you give it power to affect you personally.
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